Gary R.

I'm not sure of Chin's rules as i've never had the pleasure of attending one of their events but I am sure about how PCA treats open passing, and that's stated that a pass can occur anywhere on track with a point by. As far as a "Simulated Race Environment", those words should never be used at a Driver's Education event IMO..

mark kibort

i watched it 3 times and i dont understand
why are you running right down the middle of the track if you are approaching a car you are passing. why are you expecting him to lift? drivers done lift generally, it is really to surgically let someone get through..... by staying in the middle of the track down the main straight, you get yourself in situations like you saw. a very fast car passing in the opening that is left. generally, i would advise just shading behind the miata on the right so he sees you in his mirror and you can see his hand signals. pass close to the car, on the rigiht in this situation. that way you done leave holes on the track where faster drivers wont misinterpret as openings for them to pass. just a thought i would "pass" on
i assume this is point by passing with Chin.

PorscheAddict

Haven't done Chin in a while, but I thought their top group was passing anywhere with optional points, same as top level at Rezoom (with whom I instruct). There are lower groups for those who are uncomfortable with that. One reason other outfits have started doing no-point passing is the prevalence of open wheel cars and cars with fixed or hard to remove window nets etc. that physically cannot point by effectively. If someone is being overly aggressive and dive bombing in a DE they get a talking-to or sit out, but that very, very, rarely is an issue.

Agree it should not be a "simulated race environment."

mark kibort

are you sure about red group not being open passing in most regions? (no point by)
simulated racing environments, DOESN'T mean what you think it means. it means an open group where awareness is important and open passing is not much different than in a racing environment. people pass where they think its safe and where the passed car is slower. (i.e. down straights, under braking approaching turns, etc).
with my 20+ years of doing this, point by is usually for the less experienced groups on a track day. (PCA, POC, PRC, NASA , and a myriad of smaller organizations or plain open track days)

ProCoach

Good Lord, Mark. Make up your mind!

If passing is permtted in the corners, past turn-in, THROUGH and off the corners, WITHOUT a point required, it's racing. Period.

The issue again is the confusion sewn by organizers and clubs of all levels suggesting differing protocols for passing, different areas for passing and the inclusion of stupid, self-aggrandizing descriptions like "simulated racing environment." All to make the "advanced" run group feel better, and superior. Sheesh.

It's either racing or it isn't. PLNewman was following the rules he understood and heard in the Drivers Meeting, and the DP-02 IMSA Lites car was following his understanding of an expectation that he was participating in a "simulated racing environment."

THIS is how BIG accidents happen...

Here's Chin Track Days Red Run Group Protocol: RED: Advanced solo. Our top classification includes drivers with years of experience and thousands of laps (typically 50+ track days at a minimum) at numerous different tracks. The driver's road course skills and traffic management are now instinctive, and the driver has superior situational awareness. Drivers at this level are comfortable with side-by-side conditions, passing anywhere on track, driving off-line, and promptly yielding to faster traffic. Qualification for the RED group of Chin Track Days requires an on-track driver evaluation by one of our senior instructors. Passing requires a point-by signal, and passing zones are unrestricted.

mark kibort

it makes no sense to me... if its open passing , its open passing. race environment. however, their maybe rules about dive bombing, and giving racing room. but generally, ive never seen open passing with point by. sorry, just seems foreign to me even with NASA , point by is the polite thing to do, but not required in the top groups.

all understood. even running at the same speed, makes no sense. never is everyone running at the same speed. everyone wants to get around everyone else generally. the same speeed is how problems occure, based on my experience. if you are a lot faster than someone you run around them seamlessly.
yes, prototypes run around you like you are standing still, but if you drive your line, they are PLENTY aware of where to pass you with out you knowing it. just drive the line! so yes, drive your line, they will go around YOU .
your last comment.. "what hapens when you get passed and you dont expect it? " nothing.

+1 and more! well said.

Look, i got my start with NASA when the allowed anything with 4 wheels to run in a group... it didn't matter about the car, only the driver experience. the only incidents i reallly saw, was in the middle groups. (generally, it was group 1, 2 together with and without an instructor, group 3 ..... crazy! and then the experienced guys in group 4 , a mix of race talent and experienced dE)

I have never heard of mandatory point by in a open passing top level group with 90% race drivers. PCA with all run group levels means , red goup... red group doesnt have point by. ive done it out west and back east and never heard of such a thing for the top level group. maybe i wasnt paying attention in that driver meeting

well, you must have never been behind a car with a window net and containment seat. generally, depending on the car, it is dificult to to an over the top car point by. much easier to point by, as seen through the rear window. out the window, its easy for the left point by, even if its only a finger. my "point " is that over the roof , is guys in street cars, in beginner groups where is is easy to do. fast cars approaching have a have a hard time seeing a over the roof point by which is a dangerous problem.. at a high rate of approach, they just see "something " out the window and assume it is a left point. personally , i think point bys should only be advisory and in the beginner groups that need passing cars to know that the passed car sees them and is aware.

ProCoach

Hahaha! Yep, that's it.

DTMiller

Why did I move off line to take a pass after a point by? That's your actual question? Why did I want an identical car to lift in a DE environment so I could complete the pass? That's your next question? Why did I not expect a car I didn't point by to pass me anywhere ever during a DE? That's your next question?

Gee, those are all tough.

177mph

Direct from the PCA National DE site:

Expanded Passing Program

The Event Chairman may choose to implement the expanded passing program. With expanded passing, passing may occur on all portions of the track, including all turns. If expanded passing is allowed at an event, it shall follow these restrictions:

Expanded passing will ONLY be run in the Instructors run group which may include non-instructors.
All passing must be initiated WITH A HAND SIGNAL.
All signals MUST BE demonstratively clear and there must be one for each car.

So Mark - which PCA region is ignoring the national rules?

mark kibort

shame on me then!

you didnt read what i said. we know you need to make a pass by being off line, but dont go so far off line to give more than a 1/2 car width between you and the car being passsed (my advice)
2. you expected an identical needs to lift for you to pass. sounds like you only pass under acceerlation... yes, that doesnt work with idential car. usually under braking , the pass is more seemless.
3. why didnt you expect the super fast ferrari to pass? because you forgot you were at a race track? i dont know you are best to answer that.
next question.... are you serious?

i guess when you (or H1) said "all run groups" you were forgetting to exclude the race group, which is a run group on a given PCA weekend, and it doesnt use the DE run group rules. you said , "all run groups" and referred to a "red group" which is usually a race group, and you even said, "90% racers"
so i think you meant "all "(DE) run groups. sorry for that misunderstanding.

here is what HF1 said and why it seemed he was tallking about "all" run groups, because he said "all" and it was in capitals.
DEs are often matched with race weekends much of the time, and the race run groups are a "group" and are open passing.
Now, if racing groups are required to have point bys...that is news to me and i stand VERY corrected.

DTMiller

Mark,

If you've actually become this stupid as to not understand these issues I do hope they find a comfortable chair for you to spend the rest of your days drooling on yourself in.

All my best,
DTMiller

docwyte

mark, DTMiller was at an DE. He didn't point the Ferrari by. That means the Ferrari doesn't get to pass. Period.

So, no. He didn't expect to get passed and that's why he didn't really leave room for that to happen.

In most DE environments, it's polite for the passing car (especially if it's the same power level or much more powerful) to lift to help facilitate the pass.

Maybe its been too long since you've run in a typical DE? Very different rules/environment compared to a race group.

I run with PCA, expanded passing, point bys mandatory. That means I can pass anywhere on the track, as long as I get a point by. Sometimes even with the point by, I decline to take it, based on where we are on the track.

I also run with NASA TT, which is open passing, point by appreciated. Although to be honest, in my region, everyone always uses a point by and won't barge past someone without it...

We don't have Chin out here, I've never run with them.

Jabs1542

I've run with 7 different PCA clubs and NONE of then had a 'race group', they did have a Red Run Group and that group required point-bys for all passing. I asked two different CI's about the passing rules and both gave answers based on the same premise - insurance. The event is call High Performance Driver EDUCATION and if there is an incident as a result of no point-by AND the driver can prove they were allowed to not follow the point-by rule then the club will have an insurance problem - along with everyone carrying a track day insurance policy.

The only way to make this work is either; a) everyone follows the SAME point-by rules, or b) the race cars must be separated from the DE cars.

Sorry to be a prude buzz kill but I would rather see DEs and track days survive rather than watch this hobby/sport swirl down the toilet due to idiots being poorly organized.

mark kibort

Got it. makes sense and yes, it has been a long time since i did an a DE with those restrictions. generally, im a HUGE advocator of the point by, both in giving and reciving, in racing and DE. No question. visibility of ones intentions with hand or car actions is key to safety.

the main point of this entire discussion was to not so get so upset at someone that forgets, or gives a late point by.

certainly the Ferrari that blows by in a group that requires point by (as silly as i think that is for an advanced group) is breaking the rules and i dont subscribe to that.

Sven76

That is exactly how German trackdays are, no point bys. Typically two group, one beginner with passing on main straight(s) only, clearly defined. One advanced, open passing. Making the pass safe is the responsibility of the quicker car, communication and - at times - patience is key. In the two vids shown on page 1, just passing as the GT3 was way quicker than the other cars would have been safest, though I acknowledge that it is against the rules of that event.

Never experienced any issue, people let quicker cars pass sooner or later. I am personally a great fan of sooner, but most seem to struggle to accept that my cheap GT4 is quicker that their GT3 (it's not, but most people don't invest in instructors, different topic...). Anyway, that is not racing, so I can wait.