BrandonH

I'm a lurker on the BMW CCA list from my days of researching where I wanted to race. There is currently a very hotly contested thread around the subject of the passing flag in 13/13 racing. The situation is a BMW racer in a PBOC race, under 13/13 rules, where another car ignores the blue flag, eventually turning into the racer (who says he was alongside) forcing him off track. The racer says he races SCCA and understands what the blue flag means: "car behind you, consider why it's there" and that it is not a mandate to move over.
However, and here is the issue, he says that in SCCA racing, a car which consistently blocks someone should expect to be punted if they don't eventually yield. Since 'punting' is verboten in 13/13, he maintains that a higher standard applies to the blue flag, and that 13 racing etiquette demands that the slower driver leave passing room.
Curious to hear reactions...
Brandon

Al P.

IMHO and in my opinion only. A car should not "expect" to be punted ever (NASCAR excepted)

A car that continues to ignore the blue flag should expect to be black flagged. The blue flag as I understand it is "informational" it does not mandate that you move over or do anything else other than look in your mirrors.

Sounds like two drivers with limited experience got together.

Driver A: (the car in front) was running with little or no reguard for the other drivers on the track and had poor situatioanal awareness. If he was ignoring the blue flag he probably never even saw it, one wonders what would have happened if they had had to red flag the race.

Driver B: got impatient and tried a high risk pass the didn't work.

both drivers share the blame let's give them both a 13

That was fun wouldn't be nice if it was that easy.

Greg Fishman

Why was he blue flagged?
Was he being lapped? If so he should give some courtesy to the lead cars, he doesn't have to stop and pull over for them but he should maybe take an outside line through the corner. Brake a touch earlier to let the guy through and then be able to get back on line.

If it is because the guy behind is on his tail and they are in a neck and neck fight, then the flag shouldn't be thrown. This is a race not a DE.
I was in a situation like this, my car was not handling well and I was getting caught in certain places by a "slower" car, but he was not fast enough to get by. Was I obligated to let him by only for me to get held up by him? Since I was gaining on the leader I didn't think I had any obligation to do so.

Al P.

Obviously it is very difficult to tell from a description of what happened to determine the actual situation.

I've had a blue flag thrown at me because a corner worker saw what he percived as a faster car behind me, he was behind me because I had just put him there. (OK sometimes I get lucky)

a race is indeed just that a race, but there is a big difference between racing, blocking and just plain not knowning what's going on around you. Greg you probably knew exactly where the other car was, the gentleman in the lead car in this senario probably didn't know the other car was even there till he turned into him.

clubrcr

In every venue of racing the blue "passing" flag is for information purposes only. The flag is thrown by the corner worker to let you know that there is someone behind you. There is no rule written or unwritten that says you are obligated to let them pass. The written rule is for you not to block them, that's where a "black flag" situtaion occurs.

I have raced in many venues, including SCCA. Punting is not an acceptable way to pass in SCCA. I agree with Greg, a corner worker will throw a "blue flag" to you if there is a car behind you, but if you are racing the person, it is his responsibility to pass.

Furthermore, I don't think it is the drivers's obligation to offline to let a faster car pass. I remember racing in HSR in a 934 with 962s zooming by me like I was a moving chicane. The expereinced drivers would go off line and make the pass.

Z-man

Driver B also got the red mist!

While I'm only a DE junkie (for now), I have a few friends who are into the club racing venues, including Al P (hi Al!) In speaking with some of these folks, I heard it said that if your car has an "X" on it (signifying a novice driver), then the overtaking car typically will expect you to stay on the racing line, and the overtaking car will go offline to make a pass.

I think this logic also works for non-novices: if you're going to pass a car infront of you, why should the car infront have to make it easy for you? After all, just because you'll get by him, that doesn't mean he's gotta stop racing!

Just my vastly inexperienced opinion.
-Zoltan. (Club racer wannabe )

Adam Richman

BrandonH, having raced w/ the SCCA and briefly with another series using a modified 13/13 rule, I am not sure that the blue flag is/was/should be treated any differently. It is an information flag only not an edict to yeild way. I have worked corners a couple of times now and for the most part, the folks in the buckets know what's a race for position and what's being lapped BUT sometimes an off elsewhere (and squelch/radio noise) can have an inadvertent blue flag thrown.

I am not sure what's happening in the scenario you describe but in any case, the overtaker should pick their line wisely - they too have no edict to pass. I think there should be a distinction between what a driver might come to expect and what the sanctioning body condones. Punting in the SCCA should neither be expected nor is it condoned from my experience and this past year, I have seen a number of drivers put on probation for what could just as soon be viewed as a racing incident. Having said that, any driver being put a lap down owes it to himself and those he races with to "hold his line" (not to be confused w/ driving his line). A driver being overtaken for position *shouldn't* be getting a blue flag but if being overtaken, (but blue flag or no) he has an obligation to himself and those he races with to drive a distinct line (not making more than one line change across the track in hopes to maintain position). At times, things can get somewhat confused as to what's a block and what's not when traffic is involved but for the most part, provided the lead car doesn't make multiple changes of direction, he's done all he's required to. A faster driver will get around a slower car pretty much every time w/out incident. But the overtaken car still has a responsibility to know his surroundings, watch his mirrors and drive accordingly.

In the lapped/lapping car scenario, in my opinion, the "honors" if you will go to those in a race. A single lead car lapping 2 or 3 cars battling each other (and this is not too hard to identify in enduros w/ multiple classes) needs to pick his move wisely and should respect their race. Not that he shouldn't overtake, just that he should do his best to not interrupt their race. A single car being lapped with 3 or 4 cars battling each other for postion coming up from behind should facilitate their passing even if it means pulling off-line. I might be alone in my opionion of that but my attitude is of self-preservation - multiple car battles, whether coming up fast from behind or those you come up fast on are best to not be a party to. Now if it was an off that put you behind the car you are now trying to repass, well, you gotta earn that back (unless they helped put you off and in that case I'd hope they'd help you out a smidge).

P.S. Huge thanks to all those that throw the flags, put out the fires and make sure you are OK when you drop by unplanned - at the end of the day, they make it all possible.

Carrera51

In my opinion, if you are shown a blue flag because a car that is lapping you is coming up behind, hold your position and let him by. There is nothing more anoying than lap traffic who decides to attempt to race with you, when in fact he is doing nothing more than blocking, or using an HP advantage on the straightaway. I had this happen at the Summit Point Club race where a backmarker decided to insert himself into a dice for position between me and another car as we were coming up to lap him. Way anoying

During the same race, Kyle Doblow (drives an orange 914 GT-5 car, WELL) was coming up to lap me. I held my position on the track and pointed him by. (He lapped the rest of the field E,F, GT-5 up to 8th place I think).

PMS993

You know, there is one aspect not being talked about and that is the aspect of multiple class racing. The reason we have the class decal on the front and back of cars is to give other drivers some indication as to what is in front or behind them. At CMP last month, a C class car was blocking the way of an E and a D car. Now, was that ego for not letting them past? Who knows but he could have very well let them past and he still would not have lost position in class. IMHO

clubrcr

Racing is racing. I have had many cars block me in the past. I don't like it, but I don't expect them to stop racing when I come up behind them. If I am a lot faster than the car in front, i.e. he is a lap car, then he should have common sense to let me by, probably I would make the pass in the braking zone or off line. If someone is blocking, I would hope that corner workers would recognize this and have him black flagged.

Although I say all this, I have a race every year at Roebling where the other guy has makes his car as wide as a Mack truck, we've talked about it and he feels it racing, I feel its blocking. Bottom line....How bad do you want to win, I don't think cheating or damaging someone's car is worth the podium trinkets I have received in the past.

cstreit

While I have mixed feelings about "blocking", the blue flag is generally seen as informational. A waving blue flag is more "urgent" information than a standing one... (Like "Hey a GT-40 is about to re-decorate your bumper!")

Most of the events I race in include blocking. Not by all, but by some. A one maneuver block doesn't bother me, multiple ones do. By one maneuver, it means that someone saw me coming and moved off line. THey then have to STAY off line through the corner. This still makes them predictable.... I had an instance where a rather well-known Porsche Driver weaved across the ENTIRE track to block... Just dumb and unpredicatable.

But back on topic... THere's no way a blue flag should be a command. Why? Because while the driver behind might be faster in that part of the course that a particular corner worker can see, so he/she waves the blue flag, they might be slower in every OTHER part... Meaning a corner worker really doesn't have enough information to make a judgement as to whether or not a car should be allowed to pass.

My hats off to the workers BTW!

wch

My take on the blue flag is that it is the flag most often misused by corner workers. Though on occasions it can be useful - such as when the leaders are approaching backmarkers, or if there is a big speed differential between classes - most often it seems to me to be displayed on the assumption that, whenever two or more cars run together, someone must be holding someone else up.

If I'm being lapped and not in a hot dice, I stay on line and try to point the leaders by. If I'm being lapped and in the middle of a dice, I assume the leaders are smart enough to figure that out, and I'll give them a tiny window to get by as soon as I can - an experienced driver will see it take it. Ability to manage traffic, slower and faster, is IMO a sign of an experienced driver.

If I have a car of a different class behind me, what I do depends on a number of factors, such as: is my closest competitor right behind you? Do I know that finishing position matters more to you than to me? Are you racing for points, and I'm not? Are you a jerk? What do I think will happen if I let you by - will you continue to run at exactly my pace, faster in different places than me, or will you run faster, maybe pulling me along? If someone is racing against other cars in his class for points or money, and I'm aware of that, I'll give them a break.

I am VERY careful to try not to screw up someone's hot qualifying lap - but we've all had that happen, I'm sure, and I've probably been the culprit more than once.

As for punting, well ... I have seen folks who deserve to be punted, and that's all I'll say.

You probably should know who's behind you, blue flag or no, but I understand that there's not always time to carefully read the decals on the bumper and hood of the car behind you. Radios help with this sort of thing, of course.

BrandonH

Thanks for all the interesting discussion. It seems to me that the blue flag does highlight one of the nuances that separates 13/13 from the rest of racing: namely that how close you run is governed by the law of the rulebook (ie the threat of being blackflagged for any contact) in addition to the law of physics (ie sometimes the punt-er fares worse than the punt-ee).
I guess the question is: Doesn't 13 racing make blocking easier? Firstly because in a sense the car is literally wider, wrapped as it were in an invisible barrier; how much wider depending on the passing car's appetite for risk. Secondly because the blocking car can be "unsportsmanlike" (making more than one off-line change) without fear of physical consequences (at least on the track!)

The logic of the complaining BMW driver then would be: since blocking is easier in 13 racing, the standard for sportsmanlike driving (eg heightened respect for the blue flag) should be higher.

B


PS: I just read my issue of Sports Car on a cross country flight. Amazing the amount of disabling contact at the Valvoline runoffs. Several cars on the pole not surviving lap one. But far less contact in open wheelers vs. fender cars. Again, maybe because of the heightened consequences? I think open wheel cars do race cleaner; is the driving commensurately more "sportsmanlike?"

Chris Bennet

I thought blue flag = "check your mirrors" nothing more.
-Chris

mark kibort

Yes, Blue Flag is informational. Those cornerworkers have no idea of the battle that is going on. These two cars could have traded places 3 times before seeing the flag. Never, in a race will a black flag be given, UNLESS the leading car shows to be blocking. (more than one move to avoid a pass.)
The overtaking driver has the responsibity to not take any unusual risks. If he is actuall the better, faster driver, then it should be easy to overtake the slower car. A good driver will understand where the slower driver's weaknesses are, and use them to his advantage. one easy way to get the attention of a slower car, is an inside pass around a carocel turn. this way, there is very little chance of the outside car pinching down due to centrifugal force. (as an example). in a DE or Club 13/13 race, it is inexcusable to have multicar incidents, especially between a novice and faster, more skilled overtaker. The skilled overtaker will usually out brake and pass off line, or just out accelerate. This kind of overtaker makes his pass in such a way that it greatly reduces the effects of the passing event on not only himself, but the car being passed. handsignals or deliberate moves are most effective here.

Blue flags are great awareness tools, they get the leading drivers to check their mirrors, its the trailing driver to make sure the leading drivers eyes stay there! Blocking is a different story, and each club/pro officials have different ways of dealing with that.

75% of my racing is club 13/13 racing. I have to say, that it has been some of the closest ive either seen or been a part of. its take a lot of skill to race wheel to wheel and make clean passes, knowing the margin for error is small. pretty easy to get behind a faster car, and send him in the weeds.
Of these races, most were BMW vs Porsche races. Usually, most of the incidents were single car types.

Mk