ace37

You can always consider using the motorcycling technique of a false late apex. If you shoot for a late apex you've effectively built a safety margin in if you overdrive the car. That should give you enough confidence to push harder and go in with higher speed. Once you hit the late mark consistently and have it figured out well enough you reel the apex back and hit the true one without letting your speed drop. You are then trading that safety margin for speed.


NASA does the TT program after you get through DE and they have test days, so it's not just racing or DE.

LuigiVampa

That hasn't been my experience with a professional coach. The person I work with helped me find my limit quicker, and challenged me to go further, than I could have on my own.

Quality over quantity.

Being fast, and finding the limit, are the same thing in my mind.

ProCoach

Worth repeating. I prefer to say that the limit is not static, it's dynamic!

The MAJOR reason we KNOW that the limit is never binary is that the WAY EACH driver approaches or directs the car to the limit is DIFFERENT. Different control input timings and amplitude, et cetera.

There is NO car that cannot be driven quicker by somebody else. And the only difference is the loose nut behind the wheel... Call it confidence, competence, skill or bravery, it's the way great drivers are faster than good drivers.

Bingo. The best drivers constantly seek improvement and NEVER sit on their laurels... The great advantage of tools that generate this information and the "carrot" that is a TBL or an eclectic lap.

Yep. The former is critical...

Agreed.

The limit, in the way various drivers drive the car, can be quantified. The approach to, the maintenance of, and instances of going over can ALL be measured.

The best drivers maintain a higher level of exceeding just slightly the capability of the tires to maintain slowing/cornering/acceleration, while following their desired path and stayinf (for the most part) on the pavement.

In my experience, few drivers know "what fast is," but they all want to get there. When I look at some of the performance extracted from ordinary cars by extraordinary drivers, it's pretty mind boggling what cars are capable of doing, when directed and asked of in the right way...

I think a collaborative relationship and conversation, aided by objective measures and intensive review to determine what is the same and what is different from a driver's immediate recall of the previous session, can really make a difference in, as you say, expanding your perceived potential and capability, and allow you to PUSH YOURSELF beyond the comfort zone that indicates doing the same old thing, over and over again.

I know that undirected seat time, and session work without very specific, targeted goals, and no objective comparison before and after to determine improvement (or not), is no way to get better...

tvr-4

Thanks for all the excellent advice - definitely a lot to take in but all very valuable.

Im not going to quote / respond to each piece, but here are a few thoughts:

- Few of you restated (or better stated) my question, which really is about finding grip limit in a safe way (and venue) without getting thrown out of DEs or inducing unnecessary risk (there will always be some but great thoughts from many of you on how to reduce it and build up to limit in a progressive way).

- A few of you mentioned ensuring that the car/tires are set up for learning (paraphrasing but I think it gets at the essence). A while back I realized I wanted to learn how to drive fast (rather than drive faster car), so I sold my 911 Turbo I tracked a few times and bought a SP3 944 race car => the objective was low power, no nannies, threaded tire, high safety so I can learn and push MY limits. Net, I think im
good there?

- I'm very comfortable driving a go-kart at the limit and have done it enough where I know what over the limit looks like, the outcomes of mistakes, how to correct them, etc... something that I haven't felt as comfortable exploring in DE environments with my car , hence the question.

The good news is that I'll have a chance to put some of the great advice to use this Fri/Sun at the Glen... keep you posted, hopefully I don't bring it home in a bucket :-)

Keep the discussion going, appreciate the insight!

Juha G

With the risk of getting beaten down like our resident arguer Mark Kibort, I kindly would like to somewhat disagree.

I make an assumption that 95% of the drivers on this board will not be able to have a private coach for each and every session they go out with the car, hence that option out of the window.

So, in that case, which is better (for learning the control the car after passing the limits of adhesion):

1. 4 days a year with a PRO coach and no other driving, or

2. 2 days a year with a PRO coach AND an additional 10 days without a coach.

My point is NOTHING creplaces seat time in this matter, be it with or without a coach.

You will not learn to control the car beyound the limit of traction unless you are sitting in that car and actually doing it. period.

Coach is allways good, no it is allways better than anything else but you need to drive the car beyound the limit to learn. i.e.. seat time, seat time, seat time. no way around it.

NYC993

i agree (no ofense to coaches here) but i wont go faster until I am ready to go faster. Maybe...If a coach has comparable car and can take me for a ride or sit in my car yelling "gas, gas, gas now"

Now to find those last few 10th or maybe last second, or figure out right passing zone, exit strategies in dodgie situations etc. then yes coach would tremendous help to share years of their experience.

ProCoach

This thread is not about the pros and cons of coaching, or shouldn't be.

As NYC993 points out, and this is true for almost ALL reasonable people, "i won't go faster until I'm ready to go faster."

There are countless examples of where someone rides with a more experienced/confident/comfortable-at-the-limit driver and, newly enlightened that the limit is beyond their own perception of the limit, are able to break through a plateau and move forward in their own performance level. To the next one.

There are also countless examples of someone already "fast" who, upon reflection and discussion with someone else, reviewing objectively collected information and video, EXTENDS "the limit of what they thought possible or were able to previously execute." I think of my friend Ronnie Savenor who, with the help of Matt Romanowski (who, no slam, is certainly not as "fast" a driver as Ronnie, nor experienced in that level of car) found SECONDS at a track both know well, Watkins Glen International. Matt's perspective, and Ronnie's openness to considering a mutually derived strategy along with Matt, got Ronnie FURTHER and CLOSER to the limit (reset it, really) than Ronnie could do on his own. Great job, both of them.

Experiential learning (learning by doing) is certainly the main way most folks get better, but generally only to a point. I prefer the extension of this, "learning through reflection on doing." For example, after the session, sitting down in a quiet place and writing down/reviewing in your mind, or reviewing the video from THAT session, what you did well and what you can do better. No more than three each. Even working by yourself, by breaking down to progressively smaller pieces, you can more easily achieve it.

I think the OP's thread topic is really two questions. First, how do you find YOUR limit. Then, how do you find YOUR CAR'S limit. In my experience, the second occurs in a relatively narrow range, while the former is ALL over the map and has quite a wide range. For me, that means job security! <grin> But there are many ways to skin a cat. A great discussion...

dgrobs

Agree with this and mentioned it in a earlier post. Seeing the eventual beat down coming from the coaches on here, I backed off and didn't add another post until this one.
While coaching is surely one of the keys, seat time (to me anyway) plays an even bigger role.
What I think happened in this thread is that the original question actually became 2 or 3 separate questions and answers to one of those questions was not necessarily the answer to the other question(s).
Regardless, there is some wonderful and useful information in this thread for us "lesser than coach level" drivers.
Keep the advice and info coming, especially you coaches. Great stuff.

DTMiller

It's definitely seat time but it isn't merely time in the seat. It's time spent with a purpose. A coach can help you find that purpose much quicker than most people without a coach but you can do it alone so long as you have a purpose, goal and methodology to your madness.

For some figuring it out alone is the goal. For some having figured it out (to the extent that is possible) is the goal. Different people will have different routes depending on the goal.

And for some of us the cost of pro coaching would swallow the budget such that you don't get your fix on the track. So while it might be the good stuff, just a couple hits won't suffice.

LuigiVampa

Maybe what we each have to allow is that we learn differently.

I've been fortunate to combine a decent amount of seat time with a decent amount of coaching and that has made a huge difference in my driving the last few years. That being said, the seat time was used to "lock in" what I learned from a coach. Without the coach I would have been trundling around the track doing the same thing and learning very little.

Again, in keeping with the theme of this thread, my coach pushing me to the limit, and driving my car and showing me what the car was capable of, all helped me to find my personal limit.

Most importantly, I now have the knowledge to find my limit on any given day, at any given track, under any conditions. Unless you are a born intuitive driver, and there are some, you need someone to give you those skills so that all your track time means something.

I have used many different coaches before settling on a "main" person. What you may have to allow is that you may not have had a coach that really clicked with you.

Respectfully, shouldn't it be? I honestly believe most drivers will not be able to find their limit without some degree of coaching. Whether its looking at data, or having someone in the right seat, or driving the students car, the average driver will benefit immensely from coaching.

Best coaching lesson I ever had, which I may have posted previously, is where I complained to my coach that the tires were used up. We switched seats and he drove around saying "use the grip that is available" and put down some really good laps.

That was a lesson about finding the limit with the grip which was left in the tires. Not only did that make me a better driver but it saved me a lot of money as I am not as quick to buy new tires.

Again, my belief is coaching is the fastest path to finding your limit. Others may disagree, and that's OK. Its what works for me.

Matt Romanowski

Excellent post and something for everyone to consider. No offense taken.

Matt Romanowski

I would agree with Peter. I think a lot of how someone approaches driving has to do with their previous training, being coached, and performance levels. I've found that people who have played sports at a high level (DI and DII college, NHL, Olympians, AAA baseball) have a different approach and are able to self reflect and analyze in a different way. They are also better able to mentally prepare for a session. In those cases, they people will be able to perform in a car at a very high level just on their own, which is not to say they can't do better with coaching.

Veloce Raptor

Luigi's point about finding a coach WHO CLICKS WITH YOU is critical. Their ultimate speed in a race car is not that relevant. Their ability to really and truly communicate with you, step by step, to really improve is. I.E. the point Peter made about Ron and Matt.

ProCoach

^^THIS^^

And THIS should be the goal of anyone who wants to find their limit and the car's limit, KNOWING that there is a difference between the two...

The key is knowledge. More knowledge=more confidence=more commitment=more speed.

You are certainly one of many, but coaching can take many forms...

And that's why RL is so great!

Having been doing this as a full-time business since before high performance driving and race coaching became a "thing," it's wonderful to see relatively widespread acceptance of this resource, in what is thought of as an individual sport.

I've been fortunate enough to exchange ideas and experience with the true pantheons of helping drivers AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL find their limit. It's often about finding the key to unlock the belief system in their drivers to help them believe they're capable of doing something they don't think themselves is, in fact, possible.

Many of the most gifted instructors at Skip Barber Racing School (RIP) back in the day, Rob Wilson, primo coach of F1 drivers, Mike Zimicki, Ross Bentley (who made the conveyance of needed knowledge to probe the limits widespread in his books), people who STUDIED how people learn and make abstract concepts more fully fleshed out, are incredibly valuable guides, if a driver finds value in that.

Then again, many club day, Drivers Ed and club racing drivers (more than I would have thought) are perfectly happy at the level they're running, and have little or no interest in making the commitment to making themselves "comfortable being uncomfortable" that these coaches would ask them to make.

Which is perfectly ok, too. Just don't fool yourselves that you are, when you aren't...

cello

While there really is no substitute for objective third party analysis, ie 'coaching', Peter's note above is a very good and less expensive way to "broaden" one's limits (assuming familiarity with the track and a decent amount of seat time already in such that one's attention is not saturated).

Some here have right seated while Pros drive their car. In my case it was Andy Lally. I can only say that I was effortlessly much quicker following that ride (I had had many laps in the car and at the venue).

I think it was Pat Long that said "trust the grip" - or more accurately probably that is where i first heard/saw it. I've always thought that Andy essentially "re-calibrated" what I perceived as the "limit" as I could thereafter 'trust the grip' more.

A Pro is not required to open that door. A very good driver in the same car/set up that laps consistently a few seconds better will do...

Really good discussion and thread!