How to find your (and your cars) limit?
08-21-2017, 10:12 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Didn't read the whole post but trust me the cars limits are beyond most of the drivers . Work on your technique don't worry about the cars limits. The limits of the car are only truly explored after you master your own abilities
If you want to speed up the process there is 0 substitute for a good "Professional Coach" . You have to master the fundamentals before you can really make progress in this sport.
Unfortunately to many equate going faster to driving better . Unfortunately they are just driving that much more over there head. We all know what that leads toward.
Have fun stay safe
If you want to speed up the process there is 0 substitute for a good "Professional Coach" . You have to master the fundamentals before you can really make progress in this sport.
Unfortunately to many equate going faster to driving better . Unfortunately they are just driving that much more over there head. We all know what that leads toward.
Have fun stay safe
08-21-2017, 10:36 PM
#33
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Didn't read the whole post but trust me the cars limits are beyond most of the drivers . Work on your technique don't worry about the cars limits. The limits of the car are only truly explored after you master your own abilities
If you want to speed up the process there is 0 substitute for a good "Professional Coach" . You have to master the fundamentals before you can really make progress in this sport.
Unfortunately to many equate going faster to driving better . Unfortunately they are just driving that much more over there head. We all know what that leads toward.
Have fun stay safe
If you want to speed up the process there is 0 substitute for a good "Professional Coach" . You have to master the fundamentals before you can really make progress in this sport.
Unfortunately to many equate going faster to driving better . Unfortunately they are just driving that much more over there head. We all know what that leads toward.
Have fun stay safe
08-21-2017, 11:09 PM
#34
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actually I disagree.. seat time is a, albeit small, component
it is about doing the right thing in that seat time. reinforcement of mistakes doesn't make you a better driver. it just makes you more confident in your mistakes.
pick a single goal however small and be real good at it for that session
eg anyone of the below is a good goal; once you get better you combine multiple into one
it is about doing the right thing in that seat time. reinforcement of mistakes doesn't make you a better driver. it just makes you more confident in your mistakes.
pick a single goal however small and be real good at it for that session
eg anyone of the below is a good goal; once you get better you combine multiple into one
- hit all apexes perfectly in a single lap
- hit all turn ins and all apexes perfectly in a single lap
- zero traction control engagement (while maintaining laptimes)
- not be surprised by a faster car showing up in a mirror
- laptimes consistent within .5 s
- smooth break relase
- etc
- etc
Well, that little task made the list of drivers who can do this a LOT smaller!
Remember, consistency in lap times shows repeatability in car position, speed, placement. All good things.
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
08-21-2017, 11:23 PM
#35
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Spot on, Steve
08-22-2017, 12:11 PM
#36
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Let me stress the coaching. If you practice the wrong thing over and over it does you no good.
Coaching is the number one key to becoming a good driver when combined with a decent amount of seat time.
If the choice is to go to three track days with no coaching, or one day with coaching, I would choose the one day with coaching.
Coaching is the number one key to becoming a good driver when combined with a decent amount of seat time.
If the choice is to go to three track days with no coaching, or one day with coaching, I would choose the one day with coaching.
08-22-2017, 12:13 PM
#37
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Let me stress the coaching. If you practice the wrong thing over and over it does you no good.
Coaching is the number one key to becoming a good driver when combined with a decent amount of seat time.
If the choice is to go to three track days with no coaching, or one day with coaching, I would choose the one day with coaching.
Coaching is the number one key to becoming a good driver when combined with a decent amount of seat time.
If the choice is to go to three track days with no coaching, or one day with coaching, I would choose the one day with coaching.
Agreed..
08-22-2017, 12:38 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Let me stress the coaching. If you practice the wrong thing over and over it does you no good.
Coaching is the number one key to becoming a good driver when combined with a decent amount of seat time.
If the choice is to go to three track days with no coaching, or one day with coaching, I would choose the one day with coaching.
Coaching is the number one key to becoming a good driver when combined with a decent amount of seat time.
If the choice is to go to three track days with no coaching, or one day with coaching, I would choose the one day with coaching.
Going fast and correcting slides are two different things.
For the former, coaching all the way but for the latter, there really is no substitute to seat time. No coach will be able to teach you the "seat in the pants" stuff, you need to teach your butt yourself.
08-22-2017, 01:05 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
I know you guys are mostly kidding, but I thought it was a good time to point out maybe the single most important idea that someone (JvO, he knows what he's talking about...) gave me soon after I started this whole racing thing -- it sounds stupid and common sense but it really clicked for me and has changed the fundamental way I approach driving fast since that day.
I don't claim to be a coach, but I know what's worked well for me so take it for what it's worth.
The limit is NEVER binary. When you go over the limit, you don't immediately spin off the track backwards into a guardrail, roll-over and burst into flames (I thought I would). Sure, some situations be it car setup, chassis fundamentals, weather, mechanical or even contact by another car or object can change the time you have to recover from going over the limit.. but it's never binary.
I held myself back a lot when I first started because even though I was sliding the car around, I was scared of the limit. I didn't want to go over the limit and crash. Even to this day, I still regularly remind myself of this fundamental fact.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying the next time you're at Road America pitch it into the kink flat out because I said you have time to save it -- but keep it in mind when you're pushing into the "uncomfortable zone". The limit is never binary.
Practice correct fundamentals with a quality coach and then go make the limit your b*tch.
-mike
I don't claim to be a coach, but I know what's worked well for me so take it for what it's worth.
The limit is NEVER binary. When you go over the limit, you don't immediately spin off the track backwards into a guardrail, roll-over and burst into flames (I thought I would). Sure, some situations be it car setup, chassis fundamentals, weather, mechanical or even contact by another car or object can change the time you have to recover from going over the limit.. but it's never binary.
I held myself back a lot when I first started because even though I was sliding the car around, I was scared of the limit. I didn't want to go over the limit and crash. Even to this day, I still regularly remind myself of this fundamental fact.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying the next time you're at Road America pitch it into the kink flat out because I said you have time to save it -- but keep it in mind when you're pushing into the "uncomfortable zone". The limit is never binary.
Practice correct fundamentals with a quality coach and then go make the limit your b*tch.
-mike
08-22-2017, 01:24 PM
#40
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I know you guys are mostly kidding, but I thought it was a good time to point out maybe the single most important idea that someone (JvO, he knows what he's talking about...) gave me soon after I started this whole racing thing -- it sounds stupid and common sense but it really clicked for me and has changed the fundamental way I approach driving fast since that day.
I don't claim to be a coach, but I know what's worked well for me so take it for what it's worth.
The limit is NEVER binary. When you go over the limit, you don't immediately spin off the track backwards into a guardrail, roll-over and burst into flames (I thought I would). Sure, some situations be it car setup, chassis fundamentals, weather, mechanical or even contact by another car or object can change the time you have to recover from going over the limit.. but it's never binary.
I held myself back a lot when I first started because even though I was sliding the car around, I was scared of the limit. I didn't want to go over the limit and crash. Even to this day, I still regularly remind myself of this fundamental fact.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying the next time you're at Road America pitch it into the kink flat out because I said you have time to save it -- but keep it in mind when you're pushing into the "uncomfortable zone". The limit is never binary.
Practice correct fundamentals with a quality coach and then go make the limit your b*tch.
-mike
I don't claim to be a coach, but I know what's worked well for me so take it for what it's worth.
The limit is NEVER binary. When you go over the limit, you don't immediately spin off the track backwards into a guardrail, roll-over and burst into flames (I thought I would). Sure, some situations be it car setup, chassis fundamentals, weather, mechanical or even contact by another car or object can change the time you have to recover from going over the limit.. but it's never binary.
I held myself back a lot when I first started because even though I was sliding the car around, I was scared of the limit. I didn't want to go over the limit and crash. Even to this day, I still regularly remind myself of this fundamental fact.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying the next time you're at Road America pitch it into the kink flat out because I said you have time to save it -- but keep it in mind when you're pushing into the "uncomfortable zone". The limit is never binary.
Practice correct fundamentals with a quality coach and then go make the limit your b*tch.
-mike
08-22-2017, 01:37 PM
#41
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Right on the money, Mike
08-22-2017, 01:58 PM
#42
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The limit is NEVER binary. When you go over the limit, you don't immediately spin off the track backwards into a guardrail, roll-over and burst into flames (I thought I would). Sure, some situations be it car setup, chassis fundamentals, weather, mechanical or even contact by another car or object can change the time you have to recover from going over the limit.. but it's never binary.
-mike
-mike
Thanks, Mike.
08-22-2017, 03:36 PM
#43
As always, much wisdom found here. OP it's a good question.
I'm not a racer or a pro, but I have one thing I'd add which you might find useful when thinking of incremental growth: I always invite my students to imagine that "the limit" isn't a fixed point.
As a drivers' skill execution and overall competence increases, they strive towards another goal.
I find this helps frame the mindset of my overly cautious students and also can cool the hot-footed hero who is hesitant to accept instruction.
I'm not a racer or a pro, but I have one thing I'd add which you might find useful when thinking of incremental growth: I always invite my students to imagine that "the limit" isn't a fixed point.
As a drivers' skill execution and overall competence increases, they strive towards another goal.
I find this helps frame the mindset of my overly cautious students and also can cool the hot-footed hero who is hesitant to accept instruction.
08-22-2017, 04:40 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
1. Learn car control (seat time, skid-pad, snowed-in empty parking lots, "safe" track corners, etc.) so you can safely straddle the grip peak everywhere on the track.
2. Start with low HP, low grip and only "graduate" to higher HP, higher grip when you are able to safely straddle the grip peak at those lower HP/grip levels.
3. Get a Solo for instant feedback (Predictive Mode) as you explore different approaches on the track.
This article is good for putting OP's questions in context, especially the grip peak charts on the 2nd page:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...r-Control.aspx
2. Start with low HP, low grip and only "graduate" to higher HP, higher grip when you are able to safely straddle the grip peak at those lower HP/grip levels.
3. Get a Solo for instant feedback (Predictive Mode) as you explore different approaches on the track.
This article is good for putting OP's questions in context, especially the grip peak charts on the 2nd page:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...r-Control.aspx
08-22-2017, 04:58 PM
#45
Drifting
I think we veered off into good lap times and good driving vs experiencing the limit.
As far as how to reach that limit in your car...SLOWLY with seat time. Sometimes by going back to street tires with less grip. I was very timid driver when I started out and it took me a while to get comfortable (no electronic nannies here). Not until I was in advanced run group I was somewhat comfortable with rear steping out or front sliding out only because I was going maybe extra few mph (if that) so quick small correction would put car back where it's been before many many laps. Even now Im not one to get car into power slides like Chris Harris on youtube.
I'll say what not to do...do not force yourself to experience the limit until your brain is ready.
Skidpad/car control clinic or autoX is great tool to see how car behaves (but speeds are much slower).
go karts also great for develoing feel and car control but at slow speeds.
But neither is done at 80-90mph and you gotta build up slowly so you don't freak out and dont do wrong thing at wrong time going 80mph through the turn.
As far as how to reach that limit in your car...SLOWLY with seat time. Sometimes by going back to street tires with less grip. I was very timid driver when I started out and it took me a while to get comfortable (no electronic nannies here). Not until I was in advanced run group I was somewhat comfortable with rear steping out or front sliding out only because I was going maybe extra few mph (if that) so quick small correction would put car back where it's been before many many laps. Even now Im not one to get car into power slides like Chris Harris on youtube.
I'll say what not to do...do not force yourself to experience the limit until your brain is ready.
Skidpad/car control clinic or autoX is great tool to see how car behaves (but speeds are much slower).
go karts also great for develoing feel and car control but at slow speeds.
But neither is done at 80-90mph and you gotta build up slowly so you don't freak out and dont do wrong thing at wrong time going 80mph through the turn.
Last edited by NYC993; 08-22-2017 at 06:09 PM.