Test Drive on Tour: 918 Spyder
09-02-2013, 10:15 AM
#61
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If this is the future of Porsche, i.e., to ignore what customers want and to produce vehicles that appeal to European eviro-fantasies then the marque is doomed to repeat the current disaster they have on their hands.
Personally, I am thrilled the 918 has blown up in such spectacular fashion. I hope this dissuadses Porsche and other manufacturers from inflicting this sort of PC-nonsense on my passion in the future.
09-02-2013, 12:23 PM
#62
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Too early to tell if it is a sales failure. Committing to building 918 which is double the number of La Ferrari and P1 while charging close to million dollars could be the problem and not the car.
09-02-2013, 04:14 PM
#63
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Pete and Leno may but the rest of the world does not "get" the idea of an massively overweight super-environmental statement car hence the utter sales failure of the 918.
If this is the future of Porsche, i.e., to ignore what customers want and to produce vehicles that appeal to European eviro-fantasies then the marque is doomed to repeat the current disaster they have on their hands.
Personally, I am thrilled the 918 has blown up in such spectacular fashion. I hope this dissuadses Porsche and other manufacturers from inflicting this sort of PC-nonsense on my passion in the future.
If this is the future of Porsche, i.e., to ignore what customers want and to produce vehicles that appeal to European eviro-fantasies then the marque is doomed to repeat the current disaster they have on their hands.
Personally, I am thrilled the 918 has blown up in such spectacular fashion. I hope this dissuadses Porsche and other manufacturers from inflicting this sort of PC-nonsense on my passion in the future.
Porsche built 337 examples, including prototypes, of the 959 and lost big money on every one; the cost to build the car was more than twice what they charged for it . At the time, many people thought it was a waste of Porsche's resources and money. Yet to quote Wikipedia, "the lessons learned from the 959 project about engine management, aerodynamics, suspension tuning, and 4-wheel drive were what enabled the production life of the 911 to be extended to the present day."
The 918 is fulfilling the same role as the 959 did, and the tech in the car will be part of future Porsches whether we like it or not because that is the reality of the marketplace. I think the real point is that manufacturers are responding to government regulation worldwide; it's not necessarily their choice to "inflict this PC-nonsense". My $.02.
09-02-2013, 05:00 PM
#64
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It is not too early to tell. The La Ferrari and the P1 are sold out and would be many times over such is the demand. The 918 is not. That is an indictment of the product given Porsche's history and the massive discount re the competition.
09-02-2013, 05:13 PM
#65
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This is just for the sake of discussion, I'm not saying I'm thrilled about the 918.
Porsche built 337 examples, including prototypes, of the 959 and lost big money on every one; the cost to build the car was more than twice what they charged for it . At the time, many people thought it was a waste of Porsche's resources and money. Yet to quote Wikipedia, "the lessons learned from the 959 project about engine management, aerodynamics, suspension tuning, and 4-wheel drive were what enabled the production life of the 911 to be extended to the present day."
The 918 is fulfilling the same role as the 959 did, and the tech in the car will be part of future Porsches whether we like it or not because that is the reality of the marketplace. I think the real point is that manufacturers are responding to government regulation worldwide; it's not necessarily their choice to "inflict this PC-nonsense". My $.02.
Porsche built 337 examples, including prototypes, of the 959 and lost big money on every one; the cost to build the car was more than twice what they charged for it . At the time, many people thought it was a waste of Porsche's resources and money. Yet to quote Wikipedia, "the lessons learned from the 959 project about engine management, aerodynamics, suspension tuning, and 4-wheel drive were what enabled the production life of the 911 to be extended to the present day."
The 918 is fulfilling the same role as the 959 did, and the tech in the car will be part of future Porsches whether we like it or not because that is the reality of the marketplace. I think the real point is that manufacturers are responding to government regulation worldwide; it's not necessarily their choice to "inflict this PC-nonsense". My $.02.
In any case, as a stand-alone car, totally unlike the 959 which was a performance icon of its time, the 918 is an absolute failure.
It will win no races; the 918 will set no widely appreciated performance benchmarks; and the 918 will not be a 'dream car' for any but the most dedicated Porschephiles or for those purely focussed on aesthetics.
This is, of course, quite the opposite result of what McLaren and Ferrari have produced with their enviro-supercars, which have managed to achieve previously-unfathomable performance levels will also claiming hybrid status.
09-02-2013, 06:05 PM
#67
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The 918 will undoubtedly provide tech for future cars and in that respect you can fashion an argument for it as you have done. I would argue if this was the purpose it should have never made it to wide production.
In any case, as a stand-alone car, totally unlike the 959 which was a performance icon of its time, the 918 is an absolute failure.
It will win no races; the 918 will set no widely appreciated performance benchmarks; and the 918 will not be a 'dream car' for any but the most dedicated Porschephiles or for those purely focussed on aesthetics.
This is, of course, quite the opposite result of what McLaren and Ferrari have produced with their enviro-supercars, which have managed to achieve previously-unfathomable performance levels will also claiming hybrid status.
In any case, as a stand-alone car, totally unlike the 959 which was a performance icon of its time, the 918 is an absolute failure.
It will win no races; the 918 will set no widely appreciated performance benchmarks; and the 918 will not be a 'dream car' for any but the most dedicated Porschephiles or for those purely focussed on aesthetics.
This is, of course, quite the opposite result of what McLaren and Ferrari have produced with their enviro-supercars, which have managed to achieve previously-unfathomable performance levels will also claiming hybrid status.
I haven't seen a performance comparison or in fact any real performance tests with respect to the 3 cars so I'm not familiar with the relative performance levels you reference. I'm guessing this is because neither the Ferrari or Porsche are actually in production yet and the McLaren only started deliveries late last month.
Beyond the performance benchmarks, which I suspect won't be that far apart, neither the McLaren or Ferrari will win any races either. The McLaren is a plug-in hybrid like the Porsche but the Ferrari is a mild hybrid with KERS so it's environmental bona fides aren't particularly impressive (although it's very cool in other ways). I also think the motivation for building these cars is different for the 3 manufacturers. Neither Ferrari or McLaren are mass production marques so they aren't that concerned with technology filtering down to lesser models like Porsche is. Porsche was hoping to make a profit on something they wanted to build as an engineering/tech exercise anyway, which I'm guessing is why they decided to put the car into production. That eventually may or may not prove to be a good business decision.
Like I said, I'm not a big fan of the 918 and it's not a dream car for me either, but I kind of get why they built it. You seem to strongly disapprove of the car. What is your biggest beef with it?
Last edited by Mike in CA; 09-02-2013 at 10:16 PM. Reason: spelling
09-03-2013, 11:13 AM
#68
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I haven't seen a performance comparison or in fact any real performance tests with respect to the 3 cars so I'm not familiar with the relative performance levels you reference. I'm guessing this is because neither the Ferrari or Porsche are actually in production yet and the McLaren only started deliveries late last month.
Beyond the performance benchmarks, which I suspect won't be that far apart,
Beyond the performance benchmarks, which I suspect won't be that far apart,
The 918 produces 795bhp and 575lb-ft and weighs 1665kg (Weissach Package)
The P1 produces 903bhp and 664lb-ft and weighs ~1490kg.
The LaFerrari produces 950bhp and 715lb-ft and weighs ~1345kg.
The claimed 'ring time for the 918 is 7:14. The claimed time for the P1 is sub-7. The rumoured time for the P1 is 6:33 though.
I expect the P1 and LaFerrari to both go well under 7 mins, which would make the difference between those cars and the 918 about the difference between a GT3 and a boxster.
The 918 is, by any reasonable assessment, a monstrous pig and it should be criticized in the harshest possible terms so that Porsche does not so utterly fail its enthusiasts like this in the future.
09-03-2013, 11:45 AM
#69
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09-03-2013, 05:15 PM
#70
Race Director
You suspect the performance of the 918 "won't be that far apart" from the P1 and LaFerrari? Lol
The 918 produces 795bhp and 575lb-ft and weighs 1665kg (Weissach Package)
The P1 produces 903bhp and 664lb-ft and weighs ~1490kg.
The LaFerrari produces 950bhp and 715lb-ft and weighs ~1345kg.
The claimed 'ring time for the 918 is 7:14. The claimed time for the P1 is sub-7. The rumoured time for the P1 is 6:33 though.
I expect the P1 and LaFerrari to both go well under 7 mins, which would make the difference between those cars and the 918 about the difference between a GT3 and a boxster.
The 918 is, by any reasonable assessment, a monstrous pig and it should be criticized in the harshest possible terms so that Porsche does not so utterly fail its enthusiasts like this in the future.
The 918 produces 795bhp and 575lb-ft and weighs 1665kg (Weissach Package)
The P1 produces 903bhp and 664lb-ft and weighs ~1490kg.
The LaFerrari produces 950bhp and 715lb-ft and weighs ~1345kg.
The claimed 'ring time for the 918 is 7:14. The claimed time for the P1 is sub-7. The rumoured time for the P1 is 6:33 though.
I expect the P1 and LaFerrari to both go well under 7 mins, which would make the difference between those cars and the 918 about the difference between a GT3 and a boxster.
The 918 is, by any reasonable assessment, a monstrous pig and it should be criticized in the harshest possible terms so that Porsche does not so utterly fail its enthusiasts like this in the future.
Two points, for whatever they're worth. Both the P1 and Ferrari sell for around $.5M or more than does the Porsche, so you're paying handsomely for that performance increment whatever it might be. And just to get the facts straight, the 918's total HP and torque rating is 887 and 940lb/ft respectively, not 795 and 575 as you stated. See reference below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918
09-03-2013, 06:25 PM
#71
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So your beef is a shortage of performance. Fair enough, thanks for the reply. Bet you could have said that without the snarky LOL, but TEHO.
Two points, for whatever they're worth. Both the P1 and Ferrari sell for around $.5M or more than does the Porsche, so you're paying handsomely for that performance increment whatever it might be. And just to get the facts straight, the 918's total HP and torque rating is 887 and 940lb/ft respectively, not 795 and 575 as you stated. See reference below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918
Two points, for whatever they're worth. Both the P1 and Ferrari sell for around $.5M or more than does the Porsche, so you're paying handsomely for that performance increment whatever it might be. And just to get the facts straight, the 918's total HP and torque rating is 887 and 940lb/ft respectively, not 795 and 575 as you stated. See reference below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918
The discount price is no consolation in my mind - the P1 and LaFerrari I expect to increase in value given the history of their predecessors. Despite the lower starting point, I would expect the opposite for the 918. If anything, the 918 may actually depreciate worse than the CGT, which provided a pure, razors-edge, supercar experience that you could argue should stand the test of time better than the 918.
The LaFerrari, in particular, probably would have sold out at double or triple the price if the true cost of acquiring the car is any indication (I understand buyers had to have participated in the pre-owned F1 or FXX programs and/or bought every other model the company has produced for years).
09-03-2013, 07:18 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
Yes, it being massively overweight and the under-performance this will cause is the problem with the car. And I'm sorry for being snarky but you suggested the performance would be broadly similar for a car that is 200-300kg heavier... You are quite right about the power, though - my source was probably based on outdated info.
The discount price is no consolation in my mind - the P1 and LaFerrari I expect to increase in value given the history of their predecessors. Despite the lower starting point, I would expect the opposite for the 918. If anything, the 918 may actually depreciate worse than the CGT, which provided a pure, razors-edge, supercar experience that you could argue should stand the test of time better than the 918.
The LaFerrari, in particular, probably would have sold out at double or triple the price if the true cost of acquiring the car is any indication (I understand buyers had to have participated in the pre-owned F1 or FXX programs and/or bought every other model the company has produced for years).
The discount price is no consolation in my mind - the P1 and LaFerrari I expect to increase in value given the history of their predecessors. Despite the lower starting point, I would expect the opposite for the 918. If anything, the 918 may actually depreciate worse than the CGT, which provided a pure, razors-edge, supercar experience that you could argue should stand the test of time better than the 918.
The LaFerrari, in particular, probably would have sold out at double or triple the price if the true cost of acquiring the car is any indication (I understand buyers had to have participated in the pre-owned F1 or FXX programs and/or bought every other model the company has produced for years).
The 918 has 887hp when using the electric motors.
The 918 has sold close to the number of La Ferrari's over 400.
The P1 is not sold out. Last I read the P1 has sold only 250 cars while La Ferrari has allegedly sold its allotment. However, my understanding is if a client really wanted a La Ferrari he/she could get one.
FWIW, like most here if I had a spare million dollars I would not spend it on the 918 or for that matter the P1 and La Ferrari.
09-03-2013, 07:19 PM
#73
Race Director
Yes, it being massively overweight and the under-performance this will cause is the problem with the car. And I'm sorry for being snarky but you suggested the performance would be broadly similar for a car that is 200-300kg heavier... You are quite right about the power, though - my source was probably based on outdated info.
The discount price is no consolation in my mind - the P1 and LaFerrari I expect to increase in value given the history of their predecessors. Despite the lower starting point, I would expect the opposite for the 918. If anything, the 918 may actually depreciate worse than the CGT, which provided a pure, razors-edge, supercar experience that you could argue should stand the test of time better than the 918.
The LaFerrari, in particular, probably would have sold out at double or triple the price if the true cost of acquiring the car is any indication (I understand buyers had to have participated in the pre-owned F1 or FXX programs and/or bought every other model the company has produced for years).
The discount price is no consolation in my mind - the P1 and LaFerrari I expect to increase in value given the history of their predecessors. Despite the lower starting point, I would expect the opposite for the 918. If anything, the 918 may actually depreciate worse than the CGT, which provided a pure, razors-edge, supercar experience that you could argue should stand the test of time better than the 918.
The LaFerrari, in particular, probably would have sold out at double or triple the price if the true cost of acquiring the car is any indication (I understand buyers had to have participated in the pre-owned F1 or FXX programs and/or bought every other model the company has produced for years).
Enjoyed the discussion.....
09-04-2013, 03:49 AM
#75
Race Director
I think the core here, is that it's simply not that desirable. Check out jay Leno when he drives the p1 for the first time.. The guy is excited, truly excited. Reviewers seem to be "impressed" by the P1.. That's a different feeling than "excited"... "Impressed" Is a cold observation... "Excited" makes you spend money. I think the 918 makes me less excited than the gt3... And, if both cost the same money ($150k)... I thnk, I just might go for the gt3 over the 918. If the 918 and the carrera gt cost the same.. I would certainly go for the GT as that car definitely makes me "excited". I think Porsche lost the plot on this one.