CGT lawsuit filed.
#496
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by JBH
Nice! Additionally, I doubt many of those drivers would go out on the track with 600 hp without more safety equipment.
Originally Posted by Nordschleife
I believe that the problem with the CGT, and it one that is shared by a number of other mid-engined cars, is not that it is tail happy, but that it goes very fast when it goes. That it goes at higher forces than most cars only compounds the problem.
#497
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Nordschleife
... Certain tyres exaggerate these characteristics. Those tyres which get very 'cheesy, noisy, yo-yo-ey' as you approach the limit probably warn drivers to back off a bit. Those tyres which don't protest until the last moment, may not give enough warning of what is about to happen.
The CGT's tires are very well matched to the chassis and are one of the reasons the car is so delightful to drive. They stick like glue on the track and give plenty of audio feedback near their broad and well-behaved limit of traction.
#498
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Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 38D
Having driven a 300hp 914/6 for many years, that is definitely true. A mid-engined car has a low polar moment of inertia, which allows it to turn in faster, but also allows it to spin faster.
The Carrera GT is way better behaved in limit maneuvers than was my 914/6, no matter how much I had tweaked its 1970's suspension. The CGT excels in trail-braking balance while the 914/6 could be made either stable w/understeer or neutral, but wild.
It seemed that the only way to conquer the old semi-trailing-arm rear suspension foibles of those venerable buckets of bolts was to make the suspension so stiff (super-high spring rates) that the suspension barely deflected under the most severe loads. That way, if there is almost no suspension deflection, there would be almost no camber change, either. But, a 914/6 with that level of spring stiffness was intolerable as a street car because of its horrible ride characteristics.
The CGT, on the other hand, has ideal suspension geometry already designed by the factory, as well as a supple street ride owing to its push-rod suspension with aggressively low unsprung mass. The CGT may share the 914/6's low polar-moment-of-inertia induced yaw-quickness characteristics, but the CGT is an order of magnitude more sophisticated in its basic suspension design. This is a critical difference when discussing propensity to spin.
The thing that makes a 914/6 spin more quickly than a 911 of the same era is that they share the same "nasty" rear camber-steer characteristic but the 914 has a much lower polar moment. Neither car can smoothly tolerate much braking while cornering. They are both easy to upset by less-than-expert driver inputs. The 914/6 merely carries out the effects of its crankiness more quickly than could a 911 of similar age.
Since the CGT does not share the camber-change induced, non-intuitive reactions to driver inputs with the 914/6, its propensity to spin is not nearly as easy to stumble upon.
Any mid-engine car will rotate more quickly than a front- or rear-engined car if one is determined to start a spin. But, shouldn't the bottom line on "spinability" include how easy it is for the driver to start the spin, instead of only the subsequent yaw rate?
#499
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Mike, getting off-topic here, but that pictured 914 is beautiful. I like the subtle flares on the rear. I must admit my 914 knowledge is pretty sketchy, but were those flares from some sort of a factory special? Those "80's" style Fuchs work really nicely with overall look of the car.
Beautiful car none-the-less. Was it a restoration or a very nicely kept original?
Beautiful car none-the-less. Was it a restoration or a very nicely kept original?
#500
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Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by amjf088
Was it a restoration or a very nicely kept original?
It was a "project car" done at Stoddard in Cleveland in the '80s. 2.8 liter high-compression, chin-mounted 914/6-GT-style oil cooler, big brakes, welded-on chassis reinforcement to suspension pick-ups, hand-rolled fender flares, etc.
#501
fwiw:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2588747
To Hell and Back
Off-again/on-again super-Corvette is definitely on, GM performance cars chief says
AutoWeek | Published 05/01/06, 2:38 pm et
"That off-again/on-again super-Corvette is definitely on, according to General Motors performance cars chief Tom Wallace.
Wallace, who replaced recently retired Corvette chief engineer Dave Hill, tells AutoWeek the biggest challenge facing the so-called Blue Devil Corvette is figuring out how to get 600 hp to the ground in such a way that it can be handled by a driver with the money to buy the car.
Wallace said GM is considering requiring that Blue Devil—and even Z06—buyers attend a driver school as part of the price of admission.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2588747
To Hell and Back
Off-again/on-again super-Corvette is definitely on, GM performance cars chief says
AutoWeek | Published 05/01/06, 2:38 pm et
"That off-again/on-again super-Corvette is definitely on, according to General Motors performance cars chief Tom Wallace.
Wallace, who replaced recently retired Corvette chief engineer Dave Hill, tells AutoWeek the biggest challenge facing the so-called Blue Devil Corvette is figuring out how to get 600 hp to the ground in such a way that it can be handled by a driver with the money to buy the car.
Wallace said GM is considering requiring that Blue Devil—and even Z06—buyers attend a driver school as part of the price of admission.
#502
Originally Posted by Les Quam
Interesting how Mike who is an accomplished and very experienced racer/driver has not observed the CGT on a track or street to be tail happy. Mike also has probably logged more track time in a CGT then most any other owner on this forum and has yet to find it to be unstable? I too have yet to experience the "kite" "tail happy" sensation some would have us believe to be inherent in a CGT. In fact I have not found another CGT owner to agree with that analysis.
#503
Addict
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Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Mikey
A false sense of speed, low feedback to the driver, same tires and brakes as a 450hp car (the GT2), minimal downforce compared to nearest competitors.
#504
Race Director
Originally Posted by W8MM
The pomposity of your posts is exceeded only by their level of factual distortions and misinformation.
Seems a lot of people have a hate-on for the CGT and some with Porsche. What's the point? The CGT is a fantastic car. It is superbly engineered and more capable than the majority of us on this forum. There's the rub. Porsche shouldn't dumb down the product to cater to those who do not take personal responsibility for their actions. That is lawyer speak. Protect me from myself. Bull****.
600hp is a lot of power and that power demands respect. If a driver does not do that or gets in over their head that is the driver's responsibility. If the driver buys the car without the skills to drive it at speed then again, that is the driver's responsibility.
I give a healthy respect to my 911 even with the grannies because I don't have the seat time yet to have acquired a high level of skill. It is no different than the respect I give at the controls of the 7 ton forklift at work or piloting the boat. Don't like the fact the car doesn't have electronic aids, don't buy it, don't drive it but don't push that down everyone else's throat and deny those willing and able to buy the way it is the opportunity to do so.
Mike, that is a damn nice 914 and the signal yellow on your car is perfect. There are way too many greys out there. It's great to see an enthusiast enjoying it.
#505
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck
600hp is a lot of power and that power demands respect. If a driver does not do that or gets in over their head that is the driver's responsibility. If the driver buys the car without the skills to drive it at speed then again, that is the driver's responsibility.
Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck
Mike, that is a damn nice 914 and the signal yellow on your car is perfect. There are way too many greys out there. It's great to see an enthusiast enjoying it.
#506
Originally Posted by W8MM
The pomposity of your posts is exceeded only by their level of factual distortions and misinformation.
This data is easily available on the net, where I had no reliable downforce data I left it at 0.
Last edited by Mikey; 05-04-2006 at 10:52 AM.
#507
BTW Mike, in this is the “data” for what I normally run on the track: About 500lbs of rear downforce on 335 size tires in a 400hp car that weighs 2750lbs. Problem with this setup is excess tire wear off the track in combination with the extra camber, open pipes .. so not exactly a “daily driver” but it works well at the track. If I pull into the La Jolla Country club, it will cause quiet a stir
#508
Rennlist Member
Mikey, GOOD STUFF! It is damning.
#510
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Mikey
Mike the following is tire size, downforce, weight and power data for a collection of fast cars. I have sorted them by hp/mm of rear tire . Look at the last column to the right (lbs/mm) on rear tires (based on a 60/40 weight distribution at 180MPH including downforce) and you will see the data you are looking for. The CGT is up there with the "supercar" except for how it is nailed to the ground at high speed. BTW, same data suggests the tire size is correct, only lacks downforce. The CGT should have looked like a FXX if it was made for racing. The CGT was made for the country club and Grand Touring, it is not in par with modern race cars and in fact deadly for most when used that way (considering the amount of power and lack of safety equipment.)
This data is easily available on the net, where I had no reliable downforce data I left it at 0.
This data is easily available on the net, where I had no reliable downforce data I left it at 0.
I, like I suspect most people, am sad this accident happened. Like with most accidents, there was a chain of events that lead to a tragedy. Had pit out not released the car, it might not have happened. Had the car not swerved in front, things would have been fine. Had the concrete barrier not been there, it might have been fine. Had the driver hit the car, rather that try to swerve, it might have been fine. Had they been in full containment seats with a H&N device, they might have been fine. But it's all speculation. None of us will ever know.
Btw Mikey, what is you experience level? (and nice RS...is it real?)