Bob Rouleau

Mike - would you mind giving us your observations on how the Traction Control works on the CGT. Magwheel reported getting his car sideways after he floored the accelerator. I would expect TC to prevent this. Perhaps it was turned off, or, perhaps there is some lag, i.e. you can get the car somewhat sideways before TC intervenes. FWIW I can wag the tail of my F 430 with a hard prod of the gas pedal, in spite of Traction Control and CST (PSM equivalent).

Re-reading the last five pages or so, it seems that there is one thing we can agree on. Ultra high performance cars require above average skills. That comes as no surprise. Should buyers of said cars be obliged to take High Performance Drivng Lessons, or sign a release form should they refuse?

Rgds,

YYC930

That's for the input......never having driven a CGT yet......this is IMHO a very important thing to know.........I've been there done that in a 930 more than a few times......

magwheel

Bob, Please don't misquote me. I had to correct I think, AS, for saying the same thing. I shifted from 1st to 2nd when this jerk was toying with me, gave it maybe 1/3 to 1/2 throttle at the most, and the CGT's rear squirted out a little! I DID not floor it and I DID not lose control. I'm not a seasoned race-car type driver and I just didn't expect the car to go slightly sideways on me. I did the same thing one time in a 1991 ZR1 going over a bridge but there, I think I gave it at least 3/4 throttle and she went sideways more than a little. If you're not use to that motion, it can be a little unnerving! It looks like bridges and I don't get along too well!

Bob Rouleau

PCar - the "stick the back end with throttle" is normal procedure for 911's. On very powerful versions (my old 935 comes to mind) and more recently the GT2, the huge torque surge needs a lot of finesse to handle but you still apply throttle tomake the car "squat".

I'm not sure which versions Mike refers to,certainly the rear suspension of the 911 got a lot better starting with the 964.

My experience with mid engined cars, notably the 360 Challenge and my own 430 has taught me that they do not respond well to the time honored 911 technique. I'm not competent to say whether this is a function of a superior suspension or the mid engine layout or perhaps both.

I do agree with Mike (W8MM) that the mid engined car requires a different technique near the limit. Perhaps because I am more accustomed to the 911, I perfer its behavior, but that's more a matter of practice than anything else.

Rgds,

Bob Rouleau

Magwheel - sorry. I didn't intend to misquote you! My curiosity is centered on why Traction Control allowed the car to get a bit sideways after being provoked. Note that a bit of throttle on your car sums up more horsepowwer than my GT3 when floored!

Irishdriver

there are 101 reasons why a car can squirm and slide.....

My boxster 2,7 will stick its tail out at relatively low speed if I use that lovely sloped kerb on the traffic Island near home on a wet day. She gets to about 30 Deg before the spolisport light flashes and the car behaves itself better than me. I have also got sideways on a surprise wet patch on a high speed autobahn curve - again the flashing angel interviened.

However when I get to the slaloms the traction control has to be switched off - otherwise myself and the angel of the light might have arguements over whose driving style should prevail. You can't have two drivers in the car.

Our understanding is I'll respect her judgement on the road if she respects mine on the track.

The point is that Traction control systems cannot predict when you will get the car out of shape - they react when you do. The circumstances decide how far out of shape you get before the electronic assistant decides to help. If you drive faster than your guardian angel can fly then no box of tricks can help - the laws of physics cannot be surpassed.

However, like many ladies - she never fully switches off....if I get the car totally crossed up in a slalom she reserves the right to wake up and start interfering again.

This is a case where Porsche decided I can have too much of a good thing. Judging by the last 26 pages I now know why.

pcar964

I wasn't arguing his claims that they handle differently - of course they do. I was just challenging the notion that the CGT has a "real race car" suspension while the 911's suspension is somehow not that of a real race car. Considering the illustrious racing history of the 911, and lack of any racing history with the CGT, I'd say I have a point.

Again, not criticizing the CGT, just defending the ole' 911

MANUAL

Like PSM, the CGT TC is programmed to be conservative, giving the driver freedom to discover mistakes in throttle application and develop better discipline.

As Evo magazine said when it drove the 430, CGT and Zonda F back-to-back:

You don't get quite the same gut-squirming instant display of torque-to-weight as you do in the Pagani, but the Carrera GT is similarly explosive, and you have to be disciplined with your throttle usage, squeezing the pedal rather than mashing it, as you can and do in the Ferrari. Even with the stability control (even Evo journalists sometimes confuse TC and PSM) wisely engaged, you have to be wary of wheelspin in the lower gears. This comes as a surprise after the tighter control of the Ferrari and Pagani, but once Porsche's systems and sensors detect some lateral forces at work, the electronics tighten their grip. Even so, it's a mark of the Porsche's ultimate sporting focus that its stability system is the last to blink, and the first to re-open its eyes.

Perhaps because of this knowledge, it's harder to relax with the Porsche, especially as it's also the edgiest of the trio in the rain. It takes more time and a bigger leap of faith to trust it, but once you've nudged into the zone where the stability system begins to work, you know that you can trust the GT to help you out. What's more, it promises to come alive when the roads are dry.

Rest of article quoted by tonyh at:
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/printthread.php?t=69567

MANUAL

Mike,

Does the Engine Drag Torque Control (MSR) not help enough in this situation? Or perhaps the amount of engine braking in a cornering situation you describe is not high enough to activate the MSR but enough to increase the slip angle?

Will you be:

a) using a helmet, 6-point harness, and HANS on Good Friday?
b) changing to track/race brake pads from street pads?
c) leaving rear stabilizer bar in medium firmness?
d) limiting yourself to a certain top speed?

W8MM

Peter,

The only good observation I can relate was from a lead-follow track experience while I was driving at the PCNA invitational event at Barber a year ago:

Another CGT owner (who hadn't yet taken delivery) was driving in the lead position with Hurley Haywood as the ride-along instructor. We were going pretty fast, but nothing special, coming uphill in a right-hand sweeper onto a straight. I was in the following CGT with Cass Whitehead. The lead driver must not have negotiated the line earlier in the corner quite correctly and when he was accelerating up the hill, approaching the exit, something must have triggered his self-preservation response and (according to Hurley) he lifted abruptly while still carrying quite a bit of side-load. This maneuver caused him to go completely sideways (70-90 degrees) ahead of me on the track while I was still on the power and in a position to t-bone him had I not been awake I came to a complete stop on the track, with no drama, about 100 feet behind his final resting place in the middle of the track. Everybody had a safe day.

I saw it happen, but nothing I did that day gave me any indication that it was going to happen to me.

I think I'd had a lot more track experience than the poor guy in the other car. I'm sure he was embarrassed beyond belief.

--------------------------------------

A) I'm going only to "Instructor Day" Friday that predates their Saturday/Sunday DE. I'll use my Snell 2000 helmet and the standard-equipment inertia-reel belts. I get the impression that quite a few of the instructor corps would like a ride for a lap or two

B) Nope.

C) Yup.

D) Not really. I'll only go as fast as I feel comfortable. Back-straight speeds probably won't even reach a buck-fifty. One can manage 135-140 in a GT2, or equivalent, and GTP cars of 20 years ago rarely got past 165 before needing to brake. They had twice the power-to-weight compared to a Carrera GT and the exit speed enhancement of cornering on slicks.

MANUAL

Les,

I just reviewed this 26 page thread and found:

1) a post by Greg Fishman saying you said that Ben said, in an email to you, that he was concerned about his brake pads. He had replaced his pads a short time ago at 2500 miles and with less than 1000 miles on his new pads he indicated that they were not working correctly. He even indicated that he was worried about them for todays event and was hoping they would get him through the event?

2) no facts stated that indicate PSM would have or would not have helped Ben in his evasive maneuver. Even if I were to do an archive search, unless I'm mistaken, I doubt if I would find anyone who has stated facts that either prove or disprove PSM would have helped Ben during his maneuver.

If you or someone else know of facts that were stated in the archived threads, please point me to that thread/post.


I must be fortunate that I learned this technique in karting on one particular relatively high-speed corner of the track. At least twice, I slammed sideways into the tire wall at almost maximum speed. The pain was enough to generate fear, refining my throttle and steering inputs. As you already know, muscle memory is forgotten if not practiced often. Various cars, corners, and road conditions require recall of more than one muscle memory.

Bob Rouleau

Manual - thanks for the post about the behavior of TC on the CGT. It explains why the tail can get a bit loose before it intervenes.

I also appreciate the reminder from W8MM about the effects of lifting, especially with a high compression engine. I learned the hard way years ago - and I mean the hard way, I ended up upside down in the tire barrier. My racecar was a write-off. Oddly enough it reminded me of the first time I tracked my GT3 after becoming accustomed to the GT2. I had grown used to coming off the throttle on a short uphill straight leading to a 90 degree right hander while still carrying a bit of lateral load. Perefectly smooth in the GT2 - which has very low compression. In the GT3 the lift would destabilize the car - the difference was the additional weight transfer caused by the higher compression.

Regarding Ben's accident, I agree with Manual, I doubt that PSM would have changed the unfortunate outcome.
My guess, (it can be no more than that) is that a CGT travelling at high speed suddenly found a car in its path. This provoked a lift (W8MM provided an important clue here) and a rapid steering input (perfectly natural). The combination resulted in a loss of control and a sad ending.

Best,

gabbagabbahey

An interesting test would be to have an expert race car driver (and novice for that matter) go up in 10 mph increments and attempt the "Elk Test" as demonstrated on Boshs' ESP web page; both in a CGT and then in a stability equipped, say F430.

OTH would such a subjective (on drivers ability) test even prove driving the CGT is the equivalent to juggling live hand grenades? Is such a test in the works for this lawsuit?

Bob Rouleau

gabba - interesting idea. You'd need a large safe area to perform the test. I don't think you can compare a CGT to a ferrari though, different cars, different aero and way less power in the 430.

If Porsche is truly engaged in the lawsuit (that's not known - they have been named but that's normal) I suspect they will provide input from experts saying the car handles well. Experienced drivers like Mike and Les priase the cars handling. Novices should be explore the car's limits with appropriate caution. Not that they all will mind you. Some of my scariest moments have been at DE riding with a CEO hard charger student. They take some serious talking to to get them into a safe zone. Oddly enough, the guy with experience is scared and the novice driver feels invulnerable. Go figure.

Best,

W8MM

Bob,

You speak the truth!

One of the last times I was instructing was in 1988 at Watkins Glen for the BMWCCA Oktoberfest DE. After the event, one of the other instructors (former F2 European racer) related a wild-eyed story about one of his students who was driving some sort of new, high-powered Corvette that he brought to the event.

The student seemed to regard driving prowess as a matter for his endocrine system, instead of his cranium. He was way too fast into complicated corner combinations and seemed to have a complete lack of fear, or even mild skepticism, about what might happen at speed.

The crowning glory was during one particular lap as they topped out onto the back straight (following the up-hill esses) going about a buck-forty and the student swivels his head toward the instructor, locks his eyes onto the instructor's face as they hurtle towards the down-hill, end-of-the-straight corner, and yells, "Tell me when to brake!".

God bless 'em all!