JBH

I completely agree with you, but it is a strange thing - sometimes closure only comes with an answer that assigns fault. The hardest thing to accept is the possibility that our loved one made a mistake.

Nick

I do not want to see cars dumbed down or compromised. What I do want is people qualified to handle these cars and safeguards should a driver make a mistake. Will it extricate him/her in every case? No; but it would provide at least some margin for error.

I am all for prequalification to buy any high performance sport car especially those that will be driven on a public street or highway. All one needs to do is read some of the posts on the different sport car chat sites to recognize that some these people are border line insane and dangerous. Yet, we must share the road with them.

I have mediocre driving skills though I have had a ton of track experience and school instruction. I welcome all the help a car manufacturer can give me whether it be better tires, sharper steering, carbon brakes, stability devices, F1 transmissions and so on. My view is if I lose a few seconds around a track in exchange for some comfort and security I will take it every time. It is not about how fast you get around the track but rather how much you enjoy challenging yourself with a margin of safety.

BTW, Jeff for the record I do not dislike you. Rather, based on all your negative posts about me, you dislike me. I suspect your not alone.

PogueMoHone

Now we're getting somewhere, I bought the GT2 because I felt safer without the artificial aids, wouldn't go as fast because it was all up to me, and driving enjoyment was more dependant on my skills.

In my view the TT (which I sold to buy the GT2) was too dangerous because it masked fundamental driving flaws, which in certain circumstances could have negative consequences (made you think you were better than you really were).

I thought it a much safer route to develop the fundamental skills (staying within a margin of safety) rather thinking I could overcome (defeat) the laws of physics.

The GT2 , GT3 and the CGT, encourage the development of fundamental skills, and are of immense help in that journey to driving nirvana.

1AS

Colm,
I agree with you for the mainstream of driving experience. A Lotus 7 on the track is about as pure as you can get. so let me start there. Corner entry speeds, and the G's at which you break traction are much less than in a super car. Also, it gives lots of warning of what it's about to do, and it's 1400 lbs. are easy to catch. The Lotus teaches you alot about momentum, cornering and drifting. But, you can't get it to more than 135 mph on the longest straight, and about 100 on shorter tracks.
My Kurtis looks positively mean in it's typical 15 degree yaw in every corner, but it's limited to about .8G, even on race rubber (7.5 inch rims).
Mid-engined cars rotate quicker, and are harder to catch, particularly as the cornering speeds rise. That's why they tend to be tuned for understeer. If you don't tune for understeer, the car is likely to be way more than an average driver can handle as the speeds rise.
That's where I tend to be more concerned than you. When I looked at the CGT and recognized it could easily get over 150 on many tracks, I was concerned that it would not be managable by me. That means pussyfooting at .7 of the car's limits, or modifying the architecture so the driver had more help. Driving fast cars relatively slowly isn't really as much fun as driving slower cars quickly. As it sits, with a relatively small wing, low speed neutral handling, and no computer assist, I think I would be consigned to doing what Les is doing now- trundling around slowly in traffic. Looks good, feels bad. (That's part of a doctor joke I will PM you if you're interested). AS

JBH

And I think this is where we differ - one can always second guess what should or should not be included as driver's aids. Who is going to decide how much downforce is enough? Does a manufacturer build the car to be safe at 70 mph, 100 mph, 120 mph or what? Who is going to set up the testing and prequalification process? If someone passes, then kills themselves, was it due to an inadequate process, the person who administered the test, etc.? You see where this starts to go?

I could also argue the more safety devices you build into a vehicle, the more likely people will make false assumptions about the risk. I worry about this now at regular dirver's ed. So little time is spent teaching a new student about the risks.

Time for people to take account for their own lives. Before you go out on the track, you should learn the source of the risks and take the responsibility for mitigating that risk in every way you can.

Oldnslow

AS says: "Driving fast cars relatively slowly isn't really as much fun as driving slower cars quickly." Truer words were never spoken........Oldnslow

Mikey

My experience level is GT3 class, traction limited driving. I don't feel comfortable loosing traction over 100MPH because of very limited seat time available to me at this time. At my experience level I feel it would be foolish to a push a CGT (GT1 class machine) near its limits even if it was setup properly as a race car (which is not.)

Bob Rouleau

Nick, you've brought an interesting perspective to this discussion and I don't dislike you for your opinions - nor Mikey for that matter. Besides, I have a lot of respect for Alex and he actually agrees with you!

I'm pleased that considering the rather contentious nature of the subject, the comments have, for the most part, been civil. Visit OT to see the other side of the coin.

Nick - I appreciate that you feel you require all the help you can get. That's fair. Should your needs be imposed on all of us? That's my point. You bought a car with assists. Smart thinking. Colm on the other hand went the other way and chose to buy one without to avoid developing an unjustified superiority complex. I totally agree with him since I see drivers at DE who are blissfully unaware that they're being saved by PSM. It's a matter of "when" and not "if" they will exceed the limits of the system with nasty consequences. I cited the example of ABS and the fact that the expected benefits never materialized far back in this thread.

It has been suggested that various electronic stability aids should be fitted to "supercars". How does one draw the line? What exactly is a supercar? Is it 600 HP? Perhaps 500? Is it anything more quicker than a Camry? If this sort of thinking prevails, there won't be any "pure" driver's cars which can be driven to and from the track.
In an effort to shield themselves from litigation, automakers may insist that electronic aids be mandatory. Nick taught me that once mandatory, the maker is isolated from litigation if said aids fail. I know what I would do if I built cars.

I fully endorse the idea that buyers of high performance cars should be encouraged to take HP driving lessons. Les points out that this won't make an expert out of a duffer, but it should at least teach the uninitiated a proper degree of respect for a high performance car. This should apply to many more cars than the CGT, the 911 Turbo is dangerously fast and the internet is full of pictures of single car accidents involving that car, on and off the track.

I hope we will see the evolution of the case posted here.

Best,

XSpeedFreakX

You're not alone. Although there is much helpful information in this CGT forum, there is also an abnormal amount of negativity spread by a pathetic minority.

Mikey

This is my point of view:

Every precision GT uses Michelins, Brembos, Eibachs, Konis, they all weigh around 1500KG and have Cd of about 0.33. Pick where you want the motor and the hp rating defines the class (GT3=400, GT2=500, GT1=600). What makes a “supercar” to me is not the power but the weight. The 850K Lotus Exige excites me more than the 2000KG 1000hp “veyron”. Ultimately everything translates to the realities of human reaction times and experience levels. The human limit seems to be a 600KG machine with 1000hp (super human) and the top F1 driver is 37.

Icon, reason for the repeated posts is an important message that may save another tragedy. Ben was the first death I had deal with in my life and it is very real. People that make personal attacks should try getting laid, TGIF



http://www.seriouswheels.com/2005/20...-1920x1440.htm

W8MM

I think calling them "nay-saying nabobs of negativity" seems appropriate to cover the observed affliction.

The nabobs will try to convince you that they're merely looking out for the public good, all the while they revel in some sort of perverse pleasure from bashing the CGT. For one inventive "reason" after another.

The "reasons" seem to vary among saving idiot owners from themselves, to protecting the unwary driving public, to conjured calculations purporting show how poorly the Carrera GT is engineered compared to full fledged racing cars with slicks and giant wings and therefore can't possibly be safe (and damn any counter evidence).

Their rants are all much too fevered, strained, and sometimes contradictory to make any sense to, or win over any followers, save a small few. Yet, they carry on like the Energizer bunny.

The small few are probably only being polite when they thank the pathological bashers for bringing "another point of view" to the CGT forum. The trouble with that position (no matter how polite) is that it does no more good than if one were to thank a skunk for bringing a diversity of odor to a flower show.

It may be different, but how does it help?

W8MM

Mikey, I'm sorry for your loss and wouldn't wish it on anyone. God bless you and all of Ben's family and friends.

However, please don't wear it on your sleeve.

I'm 56 years old and I don't think you would like to enter a contest enumerating the deaths of best-friends with someone my age.

All the best

Nick

Testy today Mike? No room for different opinions and putative supporting arguments?

Here is my final statement.

The CGT is the world's greatest car, is owned by the world's greatest people and all the rest of us should fall on our knees and bow when sighting one.

Happy?

BTW, please drive it safely and in good health.

W8MM

No, Nick. I'm not particularly testy today, nor most days.

I'm merely fed up with the unnecessary, incessant, poorly supported bashing of a perfectly wonderful automobile on a forum specifically dedicated to it.

If I let this meager state of affairs persist without some modest attempt to correct the record, I would be left to retire to other pastimes and leave behind something that I used to enjoy.

I'm not willing to simply let the CGT forum neighborhood deteriorate until the last positive poster leaves for good. This forum was specifically created to enhance the enjoyment of the Carrera GT. That is its raison d'etre. It seems to me that to succumb to energetic debasement of the primary purpose of this forum is not in its or my long-term best interests.

I'm sorry you can't see that

jeff522

I have been reading throught this thread for sometime now.What ever happened to personal responsibility.You know taking ownership for what you do.I am truly sorry that these two men died,but they were taking part in a dangerous past time.People do die just driving to the mall.To blame the car as well built as CGT for a racing death is well I just don't get it.At high speed its not 0.2 sec you have to respond.Most of the time once the driver knows something has gone wrong its far to late to react.At that point your just along for the ride.I dought that all the saftey nanies in the world would have changed a thing.I have a 964,I've thought about getting a new Porsche,but I don't like all the electronic saftey nanies.When I drive her I know its me doing the driving,not a microchip making me think I'm better than I am.People need to accept the risk that come with the cars they drive and how they drive them.Lastly,just because some one has money dosn't mean they know how to drive.I know a guy with a 360, Ford GT and a Lambo.He shouldn't be allowed to drive a Yugo much less a supercar.