MANUAL

Oh Nooo, Bob! You are upset, too!? I am sorry for I am partly to blame.
Please do not bother Dr. Phil for my sake -- poor man must be crestfallen at having to advertise his F360 Spider on sale. Instead, I shall pick up one of his books that hopefully has a chapter entitled, "Y'all Either Get It Or Ya Don't: Deification of Auto Electronic Stability Control.

I understand. I wonder to what speed range PSM is limited especially when a PSM-equipped car can achieve at least 150 mph. A Porsche has the ability to hit 100+ mph in a matter of seconds and maintain such speeds on the autobahn. Why wouldn't PSM be programmed and tested at those speeds like, for instance, a Veyron's ESP?

Bob Rouleau

as far as I know PSM is not speed limited. trouble is if four wheels are sliding, braking on of them won't do enough. That is my guess based on impromptu tests.
rgds

Steve N.

PSM can only work by impacting those four contact points. The kinetic energy of the car increases at the square of velocity. At higher speed, if the car gets out of shape and needs correction, it just becomes very difficult to achieve the needed correction - PSM or otherwise.

gabbagabbahey

Thus the disclaimer Porsche puts in their marketing brochures about ESP not able to defeat the laws of physics or something to that effect.

From what I've read, although the Gallardo does have ESP, the Lambo Murci has no stability (yaw) control system. IMO it would be hard to argue that Corey's car would have been that much safer than a CGT under similar emergency circumstances 4wd or no.

1AS

I don't think the issue is whether skid control is perfect or can avert all incidents related to inexperience or stupidity. Obviously, it can't.
And I certainly agree with Bob (and when I grow up I want to be like him) that many systems suck the fun out of driving on the track, where you really need to lose grip.
To me, the question is "Does the typical buyer of a CGT need ASC to avoid mistakes induced by inexperience, lack of sufficient skill, unexpected alteration of road conditions, and the thin margin for error related to mid-engined supercars?"
Highly experienced drivers like Bob, Mike, and Nick are in a different league. They instinctively know what to do, have better anticipation, know when not to over-correct, are more gentle and precise with inputs, and know a whole lot of other basics like where to keep eyes focused, how you move your hands on the wheel, when the pause comes in correcting oversteer. They don't need it (after hundreds if not thousands of laps). But that isn't the typial guy with 450K burning a hole in his pocket, stepping up from a 55 or 65 Benz with ASC. That, I suspect, is the bigger group.
Remember, Audi recalled every early tt to add asc, Mercedes had to delay the Smart to add it, and Ford probably wishes it did on the Exploder because it is predictable that the average person makes a lot of mistakes.
The first few laps in my 02X50, I kept the PSM on, because I wanted to avoid an expensive mistake while I was learning the car. The, when completely comfortable and focused, I turned it off. On the street, where quite honestly I'm often less than completely focused, I invariably leave it on. Occasionally, I've been startled by it's intrusion. At which point I've been grateful for it. This is in a 450 hp, 3500 lb awd car, biased by Porsche to understeer. I think, to be comfortable for routine driving, and for safety at early stages of track driving, PSM would have been a huge plus in the CGT. AS

BuddyG

Nick an experienced driver? Give me a break the guy is afraid of his own shadow! If you don't know how to drive then don't drive over your ability, simple as that! What the heck happened to owning up to your mistakes? Everyone wants to blame others for their own dumb mistakes. Gee I burned myself with hot coffee can't be my fault! Give me a break!

1AS

Great Buddy,
You ripped apart the arguement by criticizing Nick. I surrender, take him out of my post.
When you slip on ice that isn't expected to be there, that may be your mistake, but it could also be someone forgot to salt.
I never said it's not the driver's "fault". I said that the buyers are unaware of how fine is the line between in-control and out-of-control. Even on this board, there have been CGT owners who are relatively inexperienced drivers. The absence of computer supplements represents a high risk for them and an extreme demotivator from exploring the high limits of the car. AS

BuddyG

I am so sick of Nick and his bs please! Whatever you guys are wasting your time arguing about this crap. EIther like the car and buy it or get your friickin Prius and shut the heck up!

W8MM

Oh, come on, Alexander What ever became of cautiously working up to the limit?

I'm far from being a professional driver. I "came up through the ranks" of being a raw student at D.E.s to being their classroom instructor. It took thought, thousands of laps, and over 25 years of letting my mistakes soak in to arrive at my humble skill level. But, I'm still no Walter Röhrl or Hurley Heywood

It's actually possible to explore the cornering and handling limits of the CGT at autocross speeds. One doesn't have to pull 1.0+ g corners at over 150 MPH to get to know the car's behavior or appreciate its refinement. I'm not done working up to my and my CGT's limits just yet. I hope it'll take a long, long time. That's what makes the Carrera GT such a keeper for me. It's capable of way more than I'll be able to extract from it for quite a while.

Anyone who imagines that driving any car at over 150 MPH can be made routine or super-safe merely by the addition of electronic aids is deluded. Any American driver who thinks that a car travelling at over 150 miles per hour is easy to control, no matter how "planted" it feels, is dangerous to himself and others. He lacks perspective and the lower level practice of constant, recent autobahn driving to credibly make such a decision.

The lack of electronic aids is not the proper focus for discussion. We should be talking about the seemingly general lack of driver restraint when approaching a vehicle with race car performance levels.

1AS

Mike,
I don't see how your point and mine are incompatible. Do you think the engineering hurdles are so steep that more electronic aid couldn't have been added?
I fully agree with your points about restraint, caution, and working yourself up to speed.
Does anybody know what VW did with the Veyron? (I understand the difference between 600 and 1000 hp, and 3000-4000+ pounds).
AS

W8MM

No, the hurdles are not too steep, given some higher price and for some additional period of development and time-to-market. But, where does one draw the line?

This thread seems to be about drawing the line so excruciatingly tight that the nanny urge has to be completely satisfied. There seems to be an over-reaching frenzy to mandate the addition of POSSIBLE electronic aids that are only capable of substituting for some elementary amount of sound judgment.

Has life become so safely predictable (and therefore dull) that we must dumb-down even the most extravagant attempts to liven it up? What is a Carrera GT for, anyway?

roberga

Mike thank you for your rational approach. The is no amount of electronic nanny gizmos that will protect the Testosterone posioned driver from any and all mistakes at 150+ mph.

Nick

I am not here to defend my driving ability but I do have considerable track time. Your post is so immature I am flabbergasted that any owner of a CGT allowed you to drive the car for a few minutes. You do not appear responsible enough to sit in the driver seat while the car is parked.

Take your turbo or whatever you own and try to beat up on some of the ricers that patrol Woodward ave.

Mike you wrote; The lack of electronic aids is not the proper focus for discussion. We should be talking about the seemingly general lack of driver restraint when approaching a vehicle with race car performance levels.

Isn't that the problem with a car like the CGT? Knowing this, should not have Porsche taking steps to addrss this rather dangerous issue? Not all buyers of the CGT have your driving experience and ability. Yet, you recognize the danger of taking the car close to the limit without proper training or CGT experience. What you wrote above is the crux of the problem.

W8MM

No, Nick, you haven't identified the crux of the problem. The crux of the problem is that any car with less than 10 pounds for every horsepower requires restraint to safely get to know its capabilites. This is not peculiar to the Carrera GT, it applied to hundreds of cars. Yet, you are only able to focus on the CGT. Wake up!

Les Quam

I have spent more time on a track going sideways and backwards and generally doing incredibly stupid things than anyone I know and I tend to think that any problem on a track or street that happens at over 100 MPH is beyond the overwhelming majority of super car owners skill level.

Like Mike, I think any discussion of electronic aids assisting a driver who spins his supercar at 150 MPH is pretty optimistic and seriously unrealistic. My opinion on more driver aids not being a help to Ben in his approximately 130 MPH crash is based soley on my experience of spinning cars off a track at that speed and not on any empirical data. A spin just happens so amazingly fast at that speed it really is hard to describe.


My two cents.