JasonAndreas

The auto industry regulate themselves? They tried that a long time ago...

MANUAL

The 599 GTB, SLR and Veyron have adjustable stability control. The rest do not.
Why? Search me.

I dislike Ferrari for not offering optional side airbags in their cars. In contrast, I like them for offering standard, adjustable CST in their 430 and 599.

If I was ordering a 302.5+ bhp CGT, had $15,500 left in my budget and Porsche offered adjustable PSM as a $15,500 option in addition to the optional $15,500 Paint Color to Sample feature, Rennlist Red would have to hit the road.

roberga

it would be better if adults took personal responsibility for the choices they make. The job of the corporation is to make money for the shareholders. You guys that think the CGT is too scary.... do not buy one. I hear the Prius is pretty safe.

Les Quam

Dodge has a proposed 700 Viper in the pipeline and even has leaked at the SEMA show to the regional Viper club presidents the time table. I wrote it down someplace but off the top of my head it's due as an 08 model but will start being built in late 2007. The motor has already passed all the needed testing and is streetable. When asked what computer driver aids might be added to the 700 HP car the Viper chief engineer looked down at his feet and said those will be the only traction control aids found on the car. I hope they have a drag pack option but I doubt it?

I will absolutely buy one how can you resist a 700 HP car under warranty? No body is forcing me or entrapping me or putting a gun to my head. I just wonder how many guys with no previous track experience or experience with a 700 HP car (and I have never driven a certifed 700 HP car either) will walk in and plunk down 100 grand for this 700 HP monster and get themselves or others killed? I don't care if they kill themselves like a motorcycle rider who chooses not to wear a helmet that is a personal decision but it concerns me if by driving this Viper on the street if they are going to endanger others?

I get the impression from talking to guys who buy CGTs but have no prior experience and plan to get none that they seem to think that growing up driving hot rods and the fact that they were able to walk in and buy the car makes it safe to drive at speed? They don't seem to grasp how easy and quickly a 600HP car gets away from you on the street or track. I think that is a general concern in that inexperienced drivers feel from growing up on performance cars that 600HP and 700 HP is not a problem? My thoughts are that you need to spin a few cars off a track to truly appreciate how quickly it happens, how quickly they get away from you. Or at least push a car to your skill limit on a track to appreciate the inherent dangers.

I wonder how many CGT owners actually comprehend how dangerous this car can be at speed? I think everyone can appreciate how dangerous an assualt weapon is? But I wonder if a 600 HP car is as obviously dangerous as an assualt weapon?

Chevy has made noises about a 600 HP Blue devil Vette which rumor has it is a supercharged version of the current Z06 but I don't know for sure if it will be brought to the market. But from what I read on this thread the current Z06s have traction control already?

MANUAL

Would you be willing to please share what you know about the crash so that we may understand why you do not agree with that position, Les?

MANUAL

Not only does the Z06 have traction control, it also has a stability control system called Active Handling System (AHS).

wch

"My thoughts are that you need to spin a few cars off a track to truly appreciate how quickly it happens, how quickly they get away from you."

... even at fairly low speeds .. how hard it can be to get it back under control, how it feels to hit something or be hit (hey, those tire walls aren't as soft as they lok on TV!), how much it costs and what a hassle it can be to fix your car ... lots of ways to learn humility at the track. Great post.

500

I'm not sure if the reference to the Z01 having traction control was meant to imply that GT might not, but for the record the Carrera GT does have traction control. There may be a host of technical reasons that it does not have PASM. Aren't PASM struts unique? It may not have been practical to build that system into the suspenion elements confgured for the Carrera GT.

But I digress here, there are a lot of "dangerous cars" out there. The main difference is that in some cars you are way over the limit at 100 mph and in others, the limit might be 150 in the same conditions. A lot more kinetic energy (increases with the square of velocity - ouch).

The discussion on power limits is very interesting. Drawing a line in the sand is very hard to do (and enforcing it with the aftermarket is even harder). Truth is we are all driving cars that can far exceed the necessities for road travel (in North America anyway) and can be deadly near the limit.

Some posts back Les, you made an intriguing comment about how great it would be if companies like Porsche would concentrate on light, low hp cars. And further on you have admitted that you would be likely to purchase a 700 hp Viper because "how can you resist that much hp with a warranty". This is really interesting because it points to the real truth, the vast majority of consumers right now (well, sports cars anyway) want more and more power. The Carrera GT, if anything, is less of a concern because it is so expensive and rare. We are now coming into the age of relatively common 500+ hp cars. It is a little crazy actually.

Everyone thinks they are aware of the dangers and know their limits etc. But I think almost all of us can over-estimate them from time to time.

MANUAL

Zero HP is enough.
IMHO, No official driving experience = No HP. Driving should be treated with the same respect as flying. As long as an excellent public transport system exists in every part of the U.S. (wishful thinking), driving should then be regarded as a privilege instead of the current right.
Hypothetically, HP should be sold based on a driving license tier system. Based on a series of tough driving tests (simulator and real-world) and testing conditions, prove you are physically fit, emotionally mature and can handle a certain HP level and/or power-to-weight ratio without making major mistakes coupled to a minimum amount of seat hours and you are now cleared to buy that HP level car. With this system, there is no limit to HP and/or power-to-weight ratio available to those with sufficient driving privileges and finances.
Yes. Any amount is too much without the appropriate license and experience.
Yes. They are equally dangerous to a 20 MPH street car without appropriate license and experience.
No amount of HP or top speed or power-to-weight is too much as long as the driver has, in the case of 1000 HP per ton power-to-weight, the 1000 HP/ton level driving license and satisfies the minimum required seat-time hours in the 800 HP/ton tier and passes the 1000 HP/ton tier tests.

MANUAL

Using a bit of indoor, 35 mph, 270cc (9 hp) karting as experience, I can relate to being hit, hitting others, hitting tire walls, realizing you've overestimated grip a split second before you slam sideways into the tire wall....Thankfully, I have been spared the hassle of fixing the rental kart and I've yet to be seriously injured.

Bags of humility and appreciation for the risks that race drivers, DE participants, and street drivers take every day.

1AS

Les,
I don't know that I agree with the concept that there is a limit to the amount of horsepower that is safe. An awd Porsche can be managed more easily with 450+ than any 60's muscle car, but even those were predictable. People did have trouble with swing axle 110 hp Corvairs.
To some extent, modern high-grip tires have compounded the problem because they allow higher cornering speeds with relatively little squeal to warn of impending traction loss. Higher profile tires tended to roll over onto the sidewall, resulting in lots of slow understeer.
I do think the computer assists are valuable for the non-expert trying out the limits on a super car. It may come down to your cite of the 1+ seconds it takes to react. I don't know about you, but it took me a while to get used to the idea of keeping the gas down if the rear got loose, or just brushing the brake to get a car to turn. I would bet that only a small fraction of CGT buyers have that "muscle memory".
By the way, which car was easier to control at it's limit? A 450 hp Viper or a CGT? AS

Les Quam

CGT is the best handling street or race car I have ever driven. All Vipers are a handful but a heck of a lot of fun and once you get used to them pretty consistent and predictable.

The Viper comp coupe starting at 129K is race ready and sorted out and the privateers are winning a lot of world challenge races in them. Mike McCann who started out in Viper days as a club racer just beat all the factory high end teams with their high priced pro drivers at Sebring about a week ago. Bob Woodhouse a guy in his early 60s who owns a Dodge dealership in Blair Nebraska finished third behind the factory Cadillac team It really is an absloute steal at that price and is ultra competitive with a sealed motor so there are no cheater motors. You can club race it or Viper days or SCCA. It is built like a tank and with a HANS device is about as safe as you can get in a 520HP full on race car. A stock Viper comp coupe was running 11.2s at the strip about a week ago. So it's pretty quick too. Might even reach 190 MPH LOL LOL

My interest in a 700 HP Viper is for the drag strip. I ain't takin that thing on a road course. Not me, no way, no sir. Not this cowboy.

Manual, I think everything I know or that has been released to the public about Ben's crash is on this 26 page thread somewhere or on another thread on this forum if you do an archive search. Someone at some point even posted a picture of the track with arrows where the crash took place.

I think it was Alex who said it took him a while to learn to keep your foot in it when the tail gets loose? It took me forever and numerous off track excusions. No matter how many times they told me I couldn't stop lifting until a couple of hellacious spins coming off the banking at Phoenix finally cured me. It's not something you learn in Karting so it took me a while longer than most folks. But the point is a good one how many GT2 owners and CGT owners have that muscle memory?

W8MM

Les,

After driving PCNA's Carrera GTs around Barber and my CGT around town, I have to say that I had to UN-learn some 911/914 muscle memory about keeping ones foot down in an impending yaw circus.

Years ago, I learned to put my right foot ALL the way down in low-powered semi-trailing-arm rear suspension cars if the back end got too loose for my tastes. In my IROC 911RS, the same instincts needed to be moderated only slightly to regain some yaw control in an over-cooked corner. The IROC would push like mad with too much or a too early throttle application. The main thing in all those cars (if one got too wild in a corner) was to "floor the gas and steer like crazy!"

The first priority was to squat the rear suspension with some engine power so that the outside, rear tire would get some better camber to more favorably "stick" the back end. Since this caused the front end to get light and lose grip, as well as requiring more front cornering force because of the increased speed, the steering angles would increase substantially during the maneuver

So far, it seems to me that the CGT doesn't like this muscle-memory-ingrained driving method nearly as much as the older cars. One surely shouldn't lift in an over-cooked cornering situation, but the Carrera GT has soooo much more power than early 911s or 914/6s that simply mashing the CGT's throttle in an attempt to "plant" the rear end can be counter-productive. Somewhere in between lifting and mashing on the gas is the right method, but one won't find exactly how much listed in the instruction book!

Also, since the Carrera GT has a real race car suspension, one doesn't have to make up for the weird driving dynamics of a semi-trailing arm rear suspension with counter-intuitive maneuvers. In all my limit-maneuver-style driving in the CGT, I have found that it is sublimely sensitive to the throttle as a weight balancing tool and too little or too much throttle are both sub-optimal.

In a maximum lateral acceleration corner, both the front and rear tires are maxed-out for usable traction. If one throttle-lifts to slow down, the engine braking forces have to be shared with cornering forces and the previous equilibrium is upset. Engine-braking steals some of the available traction from the rear tires and the resulting slip angle at the rear has to increase to compensate. The same can be said for trying to accelerate ones way out of a max-lat cornering situation. To drive the car to a higher speed, the engine torque uses up some of the available traction at the rear, requiring a higher slip angle to reach equilibrium. In the CGT there is no aggressive camber change to help increase the rear grip, so the back end steps out, not "plants". This is all pretty much standard behavior for a real race car. It just goes to show how far removed some of our old favorite track cars were (are) from real race car handling!

I'm scheduled to go to Mid-Ohio on Good Friday for some lapping with the OVR Porsche club. I'll have a better report after I have a go at the track (if it doesn't rain).

GREEN HELL

It's Sh*t like this lawsuit.. that .. ah man. I don't have anything nice to say about this ..i simply wish people would accept responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming others..
I HATE this crap.

pcar964

Interesting review Mike, although I don't think you should discount old 911s as being "not real" racecars. There are plenty of old 911 turbo racecars that would beat a CGT on the track And unfortunately nobody has ever seen a CGT in a real race before, unlike 911s

Not trying to stir the pot here, just defending my non-racecar rear suspension