Trade 07 GT3 RS with 997 Cup
01-01-2011, 12:42 PM
#46
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Based on my approx calculations,
2007 RS $90 000.00
convert to full clubsport cage/seat/harness/FE $15 000.00
Full cup style suspension $10 000.00
2 sets of 18" wheels-tires $10 000.00
Free flow exhaust $5000.00
labour-set up $10 000.00
total $140 000.00
2007 CUP $80 000.00
updates/set-up $10 000.00
tires $5000.00
Misc $5000.00
total $100 000.00
The RS is titled and can be financed thus road legal. (most likely trailered)
The CUP is trailered.
The RS has full glass, doors and A/C. (cost to remove and replace to CUP spec $10000.00)
The CUP is lighter, motorsports Diff, full weld-in cage and fuel cell turn key.
RS has 6 speed and stock Diff. ($10 000.00 for transmission and diff rebuild)
CUP tranny rebuild $20k
Engine rebuilds should be comparable.
Spares should be comparable.
It appears the street car costs more to prepare and is still not as competitive nor safe as CUP.
The difference between maintaining them depends on what you break and when.
It also depends how competitive you are with either car which can cost $$ too.
The used street car route is great for the aspiring driver looking to slowly break into the game.
The used CUP car is good for that driver looking to grow further or race.
Other then the tricky 997 CUP tranny and required skill to get the car efficiently around the track i would be ready to move into one.
Until then, im beating around the track in my street car learning. But eventually it will be CUP time as a converted street car can only go so far affordably.
I dont think the cost is the main factor of deciding for the CUP when compared to a comparable street car build. It is the commitment to having a competitive trailered race car and knowing how to use it and maintain it properly.
Typically resale on converted street cars is low whereas factory race cars tend to have a market.
FWIW, i love my RS.
Full clubsport cage, RSR spec suspension. CUP doors, CUP seats, CUP wing, CUP pipes, CUP wheel, and street legal.
It is no CUP car, but a hoot on and off the track.
2007 RS $90 000.00
convert to full clubsport cage/seat/harness/FE $15 000.00
Full cup style suspension $10 000.00
2 sets of 18" wheels-tires $10 000.00
Free flow exhaust $5000.00
labour-set up $10 000.00
total $140 000.00
2007 CUP $80 000.00
updates/set-up $10 000.00
tires $5000.00
Misc $5000.00
total $100 000.00
The RS is titled and can be financed thus road legal. (most likely trailered)
The CUP is trailered.
The RS has full glass, doors and A/C. (cost to remove and replace to CUP spec $10000.00)
The CUP is lighter, motorsports Diff, full weld-in cage and fuel cell turn key.
RS has 6 speed and stock Diff. ($10 000.00 for transmission and diff rebuild)
CUP tranny rebuild $20k
Engine rebuilds should be comparable.
Spares should be comparable.
It appears the street car costs more to prepare and is still not as competitive nor safe as CUP.
The difference between maintaining them depends on what you break and when.
It also depends how competitive you are with either car which can cost $$ too.
The used street car route is great for the aspiring driver looking to slowly break into the game.
The used CUP car is good for that driver looking to grow further or race.
Other then the tricky 997 CUP tranny and required skill to get the car efficiently around the track i would be ready to move into one.
Until then, im beating around the track in my street car learning. But eventually it will be CUP time as a converted street car can only go so far affordably.
I dont think the cost is the main factor of deciding for the CUP when compared to a comparable street car build. It is the commitment to having a competitive trailered race car and knowing how to use it and maintain it properly.
Typically resale on converted street cars is low whereas factory race cars tend to have a market.
FWIW, i love my RS.
Full clubsport cage, RSR spec suspension. CUP doors, CUP seats, CUP wing, CUP pipes, CUP wheel, and street legal. It is no CUP car, but a hoot on and off the track.
01-01-2011, 07:54 PM
#47
TCS, you already has a RS and its basically there like Mike's
I say strip it, cage it and drive it until the wheels fall off.
997 Cup engines and transmissions need to be rebuilt every 50-80 hours (if not than you risk loosing the whole engine), thats not the case for the street motor.
I know 996 and 997 street GT3 track cars that have 2-3 years of racing on them with the same engine, and my friend with the 997 Cup has had 2.5 rebuilds in that same time frame. The street car has only had oil changes.
What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
If you ask the race teams that build 997's (carrera's & GT3's) into race cars and race 997 cup cars (GMG, BGB, SYNERGY, 911Designs)... they all say the same thing... the 997 CUP COSTS WAY MORE TO RUN... PERIOD
Also a street 997 with a properly built cage and fuel cell will be just as safe or safer than a 997 Cup car, they all start out as the same car, 997 street car tubs. I even know some race teams that upgrade the 997 cup cage to make it even safer.
I trust these shops with their REAL experience, it's not forum speculation. The see the bills and write the checks.
I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
He races both in NASA, and he says that the cost to run and race the GS car over the season is penny's compared to what his 997 Cup costs to run the same hours and races.
How can you argue with that!
I say strip it, cage it and drive it until the wheels fall off.
997 Cup engines and transmissions need to be rebuilt every 50-80 hours (if not than you risk loosing the whole engine), thats not the case for the street motor.
I know 996 and 997 street GT3 track cars that have 2-3 years of racing on them with the same engine, and my friend with the 997 Cup has had 2.5 rebuilds in that same time frame. The street car has only had oil changes.
What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
If you ask the race teams that build 997's (carrera's & GT3's) into race cars and race 997 cup cars (GMG, BGB, SYNERGY, 911Designs)... they all say the same thing... the 997 CUP COSTS WAY MORE TO RUN... PERIOD
Also a street 997 with a properly built cage and fuel cell will be just as safe or safer than a 997 Cup car, they all start out as the same car, 997 street car tubs. I even know some race teams that upgrade the 997 cup cage to make it even safer.
I trust these shops with their REAL experience, it's not forum speculation. The see the bills and write the checks.
I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
He races both in NASA, and he says that the cost to run and race the GS car over the season is penny's compared to what his 997 Cup costs to run the same hours and races.
How can you argue with that!
01-01-2011, 09:38 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
......What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
....I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
.....How can you argue with that!
....I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
.....How can you argue with that!
No matter how one cuts it, driving fast is expensive, but certainly worth every second!
01-01-2011, 10:42 PM
#49
TCS, you already has a RS and its basically there like Mike's
I say strip it, cage it and drive it until the wheels fall off.
997 Cup engines and transmissions need to be rebuilt every 50-80 hours (if not than you risk loosing the whole engine), thats not the case for the street motor.
Glen:NOT TRUE, PMNA does not even recommend a refresh until 100 hours. Thats for a Pro driven Cup. A Club car goes much further.
I know 996 and 997 street GT3 track cars that have 2-3 years of racing on them with the same engine, and my friend with the 997 Cup has had 2.5 rebuilds in that same time frame. The street car has only had oil changes.
Glen: WHY? Is he missing shifts(hard to do in a 7) all we do is change the oil. Its the SAME ENGINE as the street GT3.
What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
Glen: Slicks are the only real difference unless You hack up Your gearbox. My first 7 Cup has 13000KM on the box!
If you ask the race teams that build 997's (carrera's & GT3's) into race cars and race 997 cup cars (GMG, BGB, SYNERGY, 911Designs)... they all say the same thing... the 997 CUP COSTS WAY MORE TO RUN... PERIOD
Glen: WHY WOULD A SHOP NOT SAY THIS?
Also a street 997 with a properly built cage and fuel cell will be just as safe or safer than a 997 Cup car, they all start out as the same car, 997 street car tubs. I even know some race teams that upgrade the 997 cup cage to make it even safer.
Glen: NEVER will a modded street car be as safe or safer than a factory Cup. The change You are alluding to was a door bar added per Grand AM rules.
I trust these shops with their REAL experience, it's not forum speculation. The see the bills and write the checks.
Glen:WRONG, THEY WRITE THE BILLS AND SEE THE CHECKS....my forum comments are real racer experience, not shop perspective. To be clear, You want a good shop but some of the cost comments posted here are so over the top its ridiculous. You can certainly care for these cars Yourself if You can care for any other track car.
I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
He races both in NASA, and he says that the cost to run and race the GS car over the season is penny's compared to what his 997 Cup costs to run the same hours and races.
How can you argue with that!
I say strip it, cage it and drive it until the wheels fall off.
997 Cup engines and transmissions need to be rebuilt every 50-80 hours (if not than you risk loosing the whole engine), thats not the case for the street motor.
Glen:NOT TRUE, PMNA does not even recommend a refresh until 100 hours. Thats for a Pro driven Cup. A Club car goes much further.
I know 996 and 997 street GT3 track cars that have 2-3 years of racing on them with the same engine, and my friend with the 997 Cup has had 2.5 rebuilds in that same time frame. The street car has only had oil changes.
Glen: WHY? Is he missing shifts(hard to do in a 7) all we do is change the oil. Its the SAME ENGINE as the street GT3.
What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
Glen: Slicks are the only real difference unless You hack up Your gearbox. My first 7 Cup has 13000KM on the box!
If you ask the race teams that build 997's (carrera's & GT3's) into race cars and race 997 cup cars (GMG, BGB, SYNERGY, 911Designs)... they all say the same thing... the 997 CUP COSTS WAY MORE TO RUN... PERIOD
Glen: WHY WOULD A SHOP NOT SAY THIS?
Also a street 997 with a properly built cage and fuel cell will be just as safe or safer than a 997 Cup car, they all start out as the same car, 997 street car tubs. I even know some race teams that upgrade the 997 cup cage to make it even safer.
Glen: NEVER will a modded street car be as safe or safer than a factory Cup. The change You are alluding to was a door bar added per Grand AM rules.
I trust these shops with their REAL experience, it's not forum speculation. The see the bills and write the checks.
Glen:WRONG, THEY WRITE THE BILLS AND SEE THE CHECKS....my forum comments are real racer experience, not shop perspective. To be clear, You want a good shop but some of the cost comments posted here are so over the top its ridiculous. You can certainly care for these cars Yourself if You can care for any other track car.
I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
He races both in NASA, and he says that the cost to run and race the GS car over the season is penny's compared to what his 997 Cup costs to run the same hours and races.
How can you argue with that!
Suffice it to say I respectfully disagree based on longterm real experience with both modded street cars and Cups.
01-02-2011, 12:50 AM
#50
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TCS, you already has a RS and its basically there like Mike's
I say strip it, cage it and drive it until the wheels fall off.
997 Cup engines and transmissions need to be rebuilt every 50-80 hours (if not than you risk loosing the whole engine), thats not the case for the street motor.
I know 996 and 997 street GT3 track cars that have 2-3 years of racing on them with the same engine, and my friend with the 997 Cup has had 2.5 rebuilds in that same time frame. The street car has only had oil changes.
What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
If you ask the race teams that build 997's (carrera's & GT3's) into race cars and race 997 cup cars (GMG, BGB, SYNERGY, 911Designs)... they all say the same thing... the 997 CUP COSTS WAY MORE TO RUN... PERIOD
Also a street 997 with a properly built cage and fuel cell will be just as safe or safer than a 997 Cup car, they all start out as the same car, 997 street car tubs. I even know some race teams that upgrade the 997 cup cage to make it even safer.
I trust these shops with their REAL experience, it's not forum speculation. The see the bills and write the checks.
I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
He races both in NASA, and he says that the cost to run and race the GS car over the season is penny's compared to what his 997 Cup costs to run the same hours and races.
How can you argue with that!
I say strip it, cage it and drive it until the wheels fall off.
997 Cup engines and transmissions need to be rebuilt every 50-80 hours (if not than you risk loosing the whole engine), thats not the case for the street motor.
I know 996 and 997 street GT3 track cars that have 2-3 years of racing on them with the same engine, and my friend with the 997 Cup has had 2.5 rebuilds in that same time frame. The street car has only had oil changes.
What I don't understand is why you guys think its the same cost to run a 997 cup as it is a street 997 GT3.
If you ask the race teams that build 997's (carrera's & GT3's) into race cars and race 997 cup cars (GMG, BGB, SYNERGY, 911Designs)... they all say the same thing... the 997 CUP COSTS WAY MORE TO RUN... PERIOD
Also a street 997 with a properly built cage and fuel cell will be just as safe or safer than a 997 Cup car, they all start out as the same car, 997 street car tubs. I even know some race teams that upgrade the 997 cup cage to make it even safer.
I trust these shops with their REAL experience, it's not forum speculation. The see the bills and write the checks.
I had this same conversation this week with a friend that has BOTH a 997 Grand Am/Koni GS (997 carrera built into a race car) and 997 Cup car.
He races both in NASA, and he says that the cost to run and race the GS car over the season is penny's compared to what his 997 Cup costs to run the same hours and races.
How can you argue with that!
That is an excelent point about roll cages and fuel cells installed into street cars.
They can be built just as good or better depending on the additions added.
I have seen CUP cars with additional roll cage modifications like you said.
They indeed are all the same tubs from birth.
Now it does have associated costs to prepare, but can be done just as we have seen with the Koni cars etc..
As to higher operation costs, i believe the engines to be the same approx life span in a full racing environment?
Other then higher octane fuel running through the CUP engine compared to the street car on pump gas i can see both engines lasting upwards of 200 hours of competitive use. ( top CUPs obviously tear down every 50-100 hours for the sake of winning $$).
I assume that a street gt3 engine raced as hard as a CUP engine every week would want a tear down every 80-100 hours depending how competitive one plans to be.
Couldnt a CUP car used the same amount of time as a street car on the track for D.E/track days etc last just as long with the same expenses?
Any truth to this theory i wonder?
As far as running a Koni 997 compared to Cost of running a 997 CUP, perhaps it is due to competitiveness of the series and allotted modifications/preparation?
If im not mistaken, a new 997 Koni car compared to the price of a new 997 CUP car are not far off. However, the setting up of a CUP car to be podium car out of the box is additional $$ and i can see how a service schedule designed around winning would also cost a lot with a CUP compared to a Koni car which is limited to certain mods understandably.
Would this make any sense?
Just wondering myself as i think that one could play with a 997 Cup the same way i play with my 997 RS recreationally and the only real additional above and beyond expense would be the unplanned tranny rebuild?
01-02-2011, 04:21 AM
#51
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All good points and this makes me want a Cup even more ... especially after the not so pleasant "Oh my god!" moment yesterday at Laguna Seca below. Every time someone walks pass my RS, take a picture and said "wow, great looking car!" my lap time drop another second because it makes me want to avoid a wreck. It is less and less fun to drive my RS on the track as my speed climb. I need a car I can do damage to and could care less. Yes, a spec miata or MX5 are 1000X cheaper than a Cup car to up keep (MX5 sealed engine cost $3K compare with $50K for a Cup) ... but why do I drive a RS instead of a street miata or MX5?
Like what TC said above, I too wish I could have start out with a Cup car instead of RS which will save me tons of money. But, I will never be at this point thinking about getting a Cup car if not for my RS. I think alot of us happen on a Cup car from highly modified street 911. TC is right again about selling a highly modded street RS vs Cup. It is harder to sell the modified street 911 and Cup will bring more money.
Oh **** view coming out of T11 lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1ZYTO-T_aU
Like what TC said above, I too wish I could have start out with a Cup car instead of RS which will save me tons of money. But, I will never be at this point thinking about getting a Cup car if not for my RS. I think alot of us happen on a Cup car from highly modified street 911. TC is right again about selling a highly modded street RS vs Cup. It is harder to sell the modified street 911 and Cup will bring more money.
Oh **** view coming out of T11 lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1ZYTO-T_aU
01-02-2011, 07:27 AM
#52
Former Vendor
That wart egg timer on your dash...that caused the spin. seen it a hundred times. throws the balance of teh car off.
just another reason to Cup-it-up!
just another reason to Cup-it-up!
01-02-2011, 11:31 AM
#53
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Watching that slide made me nervous too! (maybe trailering made the tires cold)
I know exactly what you are saying though!
After spending so much time and money on a street RS to make it just right for track one begins to worry about crashing it.... pioneering a street RS into a race car conversion takes time and patients. Not something one would like to lose in a track off by any means.
I have owned two RS porsches for work and play. The first RS got a little taste of a concrete barrier and i transferred all my race parts onto another RS to continue work and play while the first RS is being repaired and eventually sold.
Now that im back running full throttle and have had a close call where my tire peeled off the rim at speed (in an off camber left down slope) im very nervous to destroy my little precious again. (this is where hurting a 996 GT3 would be a little easier on me under these circumstances when compared to hurting my 997 RS. But alas, this is the price one pays to have cake and eat it too)
Im seriously considering a used and gutted 997 turbo for my tarmac rally exploits and retire the RS from any major duty besides occasional track days and weekend grocery getting until im ready for a CUP/trailer combo.
You are definitely in the right direction. Too bad you couldnt keep the RS for garage candy next to the CUP car. (that is my dream)
I know exactly what you are saying though!
After spending so much time and money on a street RS to make it just right for track one begins to worry about crashing it.... pioneering a street RS into a race car conversion takes time and patients. Not something one would like to lose in a track off by any means.
I have owned two RS porsches for work and play. The first RS got a little taste of a concrete barrier and i transferred all my race parts onto another RS to continue work and play while the first RS is being repaired and eventually sold.
Now that im back running full throttle and have had a close call where my tire peeled off the rim at speed (in an off camber left down slope) im very nervous to destroy my little precious again. (this is where hurting a 996 GT3 would be a little easier on me under these circumstances when compared to hurting my 997 RS. But alas, this is the price one pays to have cake and eat it too)
Im seriously considering a used and gutted 997 turbo for my tarmac rally exploits and retire the RS from any major duty besides occasional track days and weekend grocery getting until im ready for a CUP/trailer combo.
You are definitely in the right direction. Too bad you couldnt keep the RS for garage candy next to the CUP car. (that is my dream)
01-02-2011, 02:35 PM
#56
well it was fun debating this with you guys and I know Mike appreciates all the input..
I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
But I do agree with thusly: "No matter how one cuts it, driving fast is expensive, but certainly worth every second"
and I bet there is n better way to do this than in a 997 cup car.
ok, im going to my shop to work on my car.
Mike, hope to see you soon in LS.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree...
But I do agree with thusly: "No matter how one cuts it, driving fast is expensive, but certainly worth every second"
and I bet there is n better way to do this than in a 997 cup car.
ok, im going to my shop to work on my car.
Mike, hope to see you soon in LS.
01-02-2011, 02:38 PM
#57
I think there should be a sticky at the top of the cup car forum that says:
NOTE:
996/997 Cup engines are mechanically identical to the street car versions except for no variable valve timing, different cams and cam boxes.
Same crank, same rods, same pistons, same heads. SAME LIFESPAN if used in the same manner.
NOTE:
996/997 Cup engines are mechanically identical to the street car versions except for no variable valve timing, different cams and cam boxes.
Same crank, same rods, same pistons, same heads. SAME LIFESPAN if used in the same manner.
01-03-2011, 12:17 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
Mike
FWIW -- I have been studying the cup car cost/value equation for a couple of years. I have been PCA racing for 10+ years and have been getting the push to get a cup from my friends that have got them including the infamous Glen ( we both raced wild 914-6's with when we started racing).
I also got pretty spoiled when I got to do a couple of DE days in a GT3RS last summer. I decided this year the cup prices had dropped enough and I noticed I am not getting any younger so I bought a 997 cup last month. I am looking forward to getting it on the track,
My observation the past couple of years watching my friends is that the difference in operating cost is effected by how fast you can go or want to go and your budget. Physics says going faster wears brakes tires axles ect..... out faster. A bigger factor looks that some drivers wear things out and break things faster than other drivers. Compounding that is means - bigger budgets allow more sticker tires and motor rebuilds. In my opinion the difference would come down to driver and the cars capability. That said I think a cup is an easier choice for me for all the reasons some others have said.
There are some really good deals on cups especially 997's. Many of the 997's for sale have been professionally setup and maintained so you are starting with a car that is ready to go. Find one and come out racing next year. We need more racers.
Tom
FWIW -- I have been studying the cup car cost/value equation for a couple of years. I have been PCA racing for 10+ years and have been getting the push to get a cup from my friends that have got them including the infamous Glen ( we both raced wild 914-6's with when we started racing).
I also got pretty spoiled when I got to do a couple of DE days in a GT3RS last summer. I decided this year the cup prices had dropped enough and I noticed I am not getting any younger so I bought a 997 cup last month. I am looking forward to getting it on the track,
My observation the past couple of years watching my friends is that the difference in operating cost is effected by how fast you can go or want to go and your budget. Physics says going faster wears brakes tires axles ect..... out faster. A bigger factor looks that some drivers wear things out and break things faster than other drivers. Compounding that is means - bigger budgets allow more sticker tires and motor rebuilds. In my opinion the difference would come down to driver and the cars capability. That said I think a cup is an easier choice for me for all the reasons some others have said.
There are some really good deals on cups especially 997's. Many of the 997's for sale have been professionally setup and maintained so you are starting with a car that is ready to go. Find one and come out racing next year. We need more racers.
Tom
Last edited by wwmeatman; 01-03-2011 at 12:33 AM.
01-03-2011, 08:21 AM
#59
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I think there should be a sticky at the top of the cup car forum that says:
NOTE:
996/997 Cup engines are mechanically identical to the street car versions except for no variable valve timing, different cams and cam boxes.
Same crank, same rods, same pistons, same heads. SAME LIFESPAN if used in the same manner.
NOTE:
996/997 Cup engines are mechanically identical to the street car versions except for no variable valve timing, different cams and cam boxes.
Same crank, same rods, same pistons, same heads. SAME LIFESPAN if used in the same manner.
