World Embraces Diesels, Americans Play Hard to Get
02-27-2015, 05:44 PM
#31
Racer
Thread Starter
Sven...we're supposed to stick with the facts! Haha. You and I are the dreamers... roule only deals in facts. I have never encountered such narrow-minded crap when it comes to autos. Yep, there's a demand for diesels here. No question about it. The Cayenne diesel sells very well. My dealer has a 15+ on a list of buyers for the Macan diesel...and I'm not even on it yet. Will it sell better than the S? No. Will it sell well... absolutely. Will wager $$ on it, just like Porsche is doing.
Do I suspect U.S. automakers to sell a lot of diesels. No way. It will never happen. But it is happening with the German imports. Not just VW, either, though VW has pushed diesel for the past decade here with very good results...24% of all VWs sold here are diesel.
Do I suspect U.S. automakers to sell a lot of diesels. No way. It will never happen. But it is happening with the German imports. Not just VW, either, though VW has pushed diesel for the past decade here with very good results...24% of all VWs sold here are diesel.
02-27-2015, 10:53 PM
#32
So to play devils advocate in this discussion, here locally premium gas is already back to a premium to diesel. And while overall fuel costs are low presently they are likely to move up markedly so for a high mileage driver such as myself (26,500k/year) even at present prices the fuel cost savings are appreciable. But I will concede that interest in a Porsche as a high mileage daily is an outlier.
One other factor regarding the diesel is that this particular diesel is a known quantity. I appreciate that it is not a Porsche engine, it's a Volkswagen TDI but this particular engine will deliver 400-500,000 miles. Now it's true that everything around it will break but the engine itself is a good engine. And if you have a good indy, it'll cost you what it'll cost to maintain an Audi. So it's not a death knell.
And I think that's where the deviation in thought lies. If you're already committing sacrilege by considering a Porsche as a high mileage daily driver, to some degree you've already left the fold.
And make no mistake this offering is a deliberate effort to vastly expand beyond the previous target market.
And there will be those like Fincher whose eclectic tastes favor the diesel.
But for those for whom the sound of a GT3 causes an erection(me included), the diesel remains troubling.
I've been waiting on the diesel and will continue. I want to see what they offer here and for my purposes it makes perfect sense, especially if it is a more robust offering and the performance disparity narrowed. But even so I am struggling with it. And I'm not sure it's a good idea to think about a Porsche this way.
Because another strategy is to simply go with a modestly equipped S with an extended and just turn it over every 100K, eat the fuel savings.
One other factor regarding the diesel is that this particular diesel is a known quantity. I appreciate that it is not a Porsche engine, it's a Volkswagen TDI but this particular engine will deliver 400-500,000 miles. Now it's true that everything around it will break but the engine itself is a good engine. And if you have a good indy, it'll cost you what it'll cost to maintain an Audi. So it's not a death knell.
And I think that's where the deviation in thought lies. If you're already committing sacrilege by considering a Porsche as a high mileage daily driver, to some degree you've already left the fold.
And make no mistake this offering is a deliberate effort to vastly expand beyond the previous target market.
And there will be those like Fincher whose eclectic tastes favor the diesel.
But for those for whom the sound of a GT3 causes an erection(me included), the diesel remains troubling.
I've been waiting on the diesel and will continue. I want to see what they offer here and for my purposes it makes perfect sense, especially if it is a more robust offering and the performance disparity narrowed. But even so I am struggling with it. And I'm not sure it's a good idea to think about a Porsche this way.
Because another strategy is to simply go with a modestly equipped S with an extended and just turn it over every 100K, eat the fuel savings.
02-27-2015, 11:24 PM
#33
Racer
Thread Starter
Buckfever, I am still open to the S gasser, too. I want to see how the diesel version stacks up. Given the miles we drive, it just makes good sense to wait for the diesel. I have no doubt the diesel will very good but will the premium (~$3k) be worth it? The VAG 3.0 diesels are excellent and fun to drive so I think it will be worth it to me, anyway.
03-02-2015, 12:25 PM
#34
fincher, if you equate a waiting list with high sales, then you have a very different definition of "selling well" compared to the rest of us.
Consider this: in the USA,
-The Cayenne Diesel sells for $61,700
-The Cayenne S sells for $74,100.
It's not easy to find sales figures broken down by sub-model, but even by your own admission there is no question that the Cayenne S is far more popular in the USA than the Diesel model despite the $12,400 price difference.
So, fincher, please explain again why you think diesels "sell well" in the USA. Porsche has to keep their CAFE numbers acceptable. I contend that Porsche may have to discount a Macan Diesel in the USA because of low demand. Obviously demand for diesels isn't even strong enough for Porsche to sell Cayennes without a ~15% price discount versus the next closest gasoline model.
I have tried hard and diplomatically to show you this reality, but you have only offered personal opinion and underhanded personal attacks at me. This discussion is now over. Enjoy your long range vehicles.
Consider this: in the USA,
-The Cayenne Diesel sells for $61,700
-The Cayenne S sells for $74,100.
It's not easy to find sales figures broken down by sub-model, but even by your own admission there is no question that the Cayenne S is far more popular in the USA than the Diesel model despite the $12,400 price difference.
So, fincher, please explain again why you think diesels "sell well" in the USA. Porsche has to keep their CAFE numbers acceptable. I contend that Porsche may have to discount a Macan Diesel in the USA because of low demand. Obviously demand for diesels isn't even strong enough for Porsche to sell Cayennes without a ~15% price discount versus the next closest gasoline model.
I have tried hard and diplomatically to show you this reality, but you have only offered personal opinion and underhanded personal attacks at me. This discussion is now over. Enjoy your long range vehicles.
03-02-2015, 12:51 PM
#35
Racer
Thread Starter
Funny. You pull arbitrary pricing for the Cayenne. This is similar to how you pull fuel pricing for ‘Chicago’ on GasBuddy. The Cayenne diesel sells at about a $3k premium over the base model. Why pull the higher model for your comparison? That doesn’t prove your 15% discount theory at all. You are off-base and inaccurate in your comparison. Facts? Not even close.
At my local P dealer, the diesel Cayenne is the best seller of all the Cayennes. Go on cars.com and search 2015 Cayenne with a max price of $80k and see the split between the available gasoline and diesel models. It’s 260 for gasoline and 285 for diesel. Does cars.com list all Cayennes for sale in the U.S.? No. But it is a very good representation.
We have no way to accurately gauge how the diesel Macan will fare in terms of sales other than seeing how the Cayenne diesel has fared (and for me, the list of waiting buyers at my dealer).
Diplomatic? Personal attacks? Facts? You, sir, are an arrogant, narrow-minded snob.
At my local P dealer, the diesel Cayenne is the best seller of all the Cayennes. Go on cars.com and search 2015 Cayenne with a max price of $80k and see the split between the available gasoline and diesel models. It’s 260 for gasoline and 285 for diesel. Does cars.com list all Cayennes for sale in the U.S.? No. But it is a very good representation.
We have no way to accurately gauge how the diesel Macan will fare in terms of sales other than seeing how the Cayenne diesel has fared (and for me, the list of waiting buyers at my dealer).
Diplomatic? Personal attacks? Facts? You, sir, are an arrogant, narrow-minded snob.
03-02-2015, 01:53 PM
#36
"arbitrary pricing for the Cayenne"
... is Porsche's list pricing. I trust Porsche more than I trust your empty assertions.
"Fuel pricing for ‘Chicago’ on GasBuddy"
This is a much more authoritative source that you have offered. Oh that's right, you don't bother to back up anything you say.
"The Cayenne diesel sells at about a $3k premium over the base model."
My error, i was mentally thinking Macan, and there is no base Macan model offered in the USA -- only S and up. One can get a base Cayenne for a lower list price than the Diesel model. I apologize.
"At my local P dealer, the diesel Cayenne is the best seller of all the Cayennes. Go on cars.com and search 2015 Cayenne with a max price of $80k and see the split between the available gasoline and diesel models. It’s 260 for gasoline and 285 for diesel. Does cars.com list all Cayennes for sale in the U.S.? No. But it is a very good representation."
So who's cherry picking data now? Availability at your dealer does not equal units sold. Moreover, by artificially putting an $80k cap, you eliminate all the higher power & high-optioned gasoline Cayenne models.
"We have no way to accurately gauge how the diesel Macan will fare in terms of sales other than seeing how the Cayenne diesel has fared (and for me, the list of waiting buyers at my dealer)."
Again, I look at national gross sales rather than waiting lists in at one dealer .... as everyone in sales or marketing or manufacturing does when discussion national markets.
"Diplomatic? Personal attacks? Facts? You, sir, are an arrogant, narrow-minded snob."
You prove my point. I discuss objective diesel sales, you find anything you can to argue that there is some huge demand for diesels in a nation that has demonstrated for decades that, for many reasons, diesel has not proven the preferred choice for 97% of motorists -- and then finish with a juvenile personal attack.
Goodbye.
... is Porsche's list pricing. I trust Porsche more than I trust your empty assertions.
"Fuel pricing for ‘Chicago’ on GasBuddy"
This is a much more authoritative source that you have offered. Oh that's right, you don't bother to back up anything you say.
"The Cayenne diesel sells at about a $3k premium over the base model."
My error, i was mentally thinking Macan, and there is no base Macan model offered in the USA -- only S and up. One can get a base Cayenne for a lower list price than the Diesel model. I apologize.
"At my local P dealer, the diesel Cayenne is the best seller of all the Cayennes. Go on cars.com and search 2015 Cayenne with a max price of $80k and see the split between the available gasoline and diesel models. It’s 260 for gasoline and 285 for diesel. Does cars.com list all Cayennes for sale in the U.S.? No. But it is a very good representation."
So who's cherry picking data now? Availability at your dealer does not equal units sold. Moreover, by artificially putting an $80k cap, you eliminate all the higher power & high-optioned gasoline Cayenne models.
"We have no way to accurately gauge how the diesel Macan will fare in terms of sales other than seeing how the Cayenne diesel has fared (and for me, the list of waiting buyers at my dealer)."
Again, I look at national gross sales rather than waiting lists in at one dealer .... as everyone in sales or marketing or manufacturing does when discussion national markets.
"Diplomatic? Personal attacks? Facts? You, sir, are an arrogant, narrow-minded snob."
You prove my point. I discuss objective diesel sales, you find anything you can to argue that there is some huge demand for diesels in a nation that has demonstrated for decades that, for many reasons, diesel has not proven the preferred choice for 97% of motorists -- and then finish with a juvenile personal attack.
Goodbye.
03-02-2015, 03:32 PM
#37
Racer
Thread Starter
Fuel pricing: what is premium vs diesel cost? Currently, thisclose, according to GasBuddy around my zip: Premium = $2.98; Diesel = $3.09. By summer, premium will be higher than diesel here and then back down by autumn. Like I said, diesel pricing is relatively flat year-round and is not susceptible to huge price swings.
All 2015 Cayennes on cars.com at any price:
Gasoline: 683
Diesel: 342
From the Porsche USA site:
Base Cayenne = $58,300
Cayenne Diesel = $61,700
No doubt most Americans will not drive a diesel. Never disputed that. You can spin the cars.com numbers all you want...just numbers and merely saying it is representative.
Discounting the diesel models in order to move them? What facts do you have to support that?
About two weeks back, I asked you that if gas and diesel fuel pricing was identical, what is the cost negative then?
Diesel burns cleaner than gasoline. Particulates? The DPF filter takes care of that.
All 2015 Cayennes on cars.com at any price:
Gasoline: 683
Diesel: 342
From the Porsche USA site:
Base Cayenne = $58,300
Cayenne Diesel = $61,700
No doubt most Americans will not drive a diesel. Never disputed that. You can spin the cars.com numbers all you want...just numbers and merely saying it is representative.
Discounting the diesel models in order to move them? What facts do you have to support that?
About two weeks back, I asked you that if gas and diesel fuel pricing was identical, what is the cost negative then?
Diesel burns cleaner than gasoline. Particulates? The DPF filter takes care of that.
03-02-2015, 06:06 PM
#38
Yes let's stop the personal attacks. I have gained the most where my stated position was wrong and someone had the courage to step in and help me grow in my knowledge. That's constructive, let's try and foster rather than dissuade such inputs.
03-02-2015, 07:24 PM
#39
Racer
Thread Starter
Constructive...that's the goal. When things get twisted, and then condescending, I will call it as I see it. Amazing the amount of spin in this thread. Never said diesel sells well here. Never said there is a huge demand. Did say the Cayenne diesel sells well and that there is a demand for the Macan diesel. No more. No less.
The rest is a lot of noise from a fellow forum member who simply dislikes diesels.
The rest is a lot of noise from a fellow forum member who simply dislikes diesels.
03-03-2015, 01:43 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
This is precisely where we disagree. Thank you for noting that I use facts to justify my assertions, I do believe that intelligent discussion requires that we "have an answer for everything".
I'm not trying to say diesel is bad, I'd just like to know where you come up with the idea that there is significant demand for diesel cars in the USA
In the late Dubya Bush years as gasoline prices soared, many claimed the time was ripe for the diesel car sales to take off. Carmakers finally started offering modern diesel engine options in cars. The results sadly have not been very encouraging: after the recent diesel push, 3% of all vehicles sold in the USA in 2013 are diesel powered. Most of these are trucks. VW, the sales leader with over 75% market share for diesel cars in the USA, sold a grand total of 56,480 TDI models in the USA in 2013. Today with temporarily low gas prices, they are struggling to move TDI models off the lots.
If Porsche wants to bring over a diesel engine, it is not because there is huge consumer demand for it, it is because Porsche needs to offset its other gas-guzzling Macan models with a relative fuel sipper to meet CAFE requirements.
I also predict that Porsche USA, like Porsche UK, will have to give away the diesel models at the same (or even a lower price) than the gasoline models because sports vehicle buyers strongly prefer dynamic vehicle performance over economy and range. However, this is all good news for those diesel enthusiasts who want maximum range between fillups.
I'm not trying to say diesel is bad, I'd just like to know where you come up with the idea that there is significant demand for diesel cars in the USA
In the late Dubya Bush years as gasoline prices soared, many claimed the time was ripe for the diesel car sales to take off. Carmakers finally started offering modern diesel engine options in cars. The results sadly have not been very encouraging: after the recent diesel push, 3% of all vehicles sold in the USA in 2013 are diesel powered. Most of these are trucks. VW, the sales leader with over 75% market share for diesel cars in the USA, sold a grand total of 56,480 TDI models in the USA in 2013. Today with temporarily low gas prices, they are struggling to move TDI models off the lots.
If Porsche wants to bring over a diesel engine, it is not because there is huge consumer demand for it, it is because Porsche needs to offset its other gas-guzzling Macan models with a relative fuel sipper to meet CAFE requirements.
I also predict that Porsche USA, like Porsche UK, will have to give away the diesel models at the same (or even a lower price) than the gasoline models because sports vehicle buyers strongly prefer dynamic vehicle performance over economy and range. However, this is all good news for those diesel enthusiasts who want maximum range between fillups.
And they're not giving away Cayenne diesels.
Your blatant hate of diesels (is it just Porsche or all diesels?) detracts from any credibility your posts might otherwise have.
03-03-2015, 12:04 PM
#41
In my local area, Cayenne diesels are very popular. They don't seem to stay on the lot for too long. I would give Cayenne diesel a serious look if I was in the market for a Cayenne. 26 gal. fuel tank makes for 700 miles range. I'd love that. I am guessing the take rate for Macan diesel would be lower. It's good to have options though.
03-12-2015, 12:56 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Just want to throw in that here in Bellingham, diesel is going down - to $2.68 today - while regular is going up, to $2.93!
I know it won't last, but it's good to see it the way it's supposed to be, even if temporarily!
I know it won't last, but it's good to see it the way it's supposed to be, even if temporarily!
03-17-2015, 01:14 AM
#45
At a certain point, "World" will face a problem, as refineries cannot "tweak" the process, i.e.: to get more "diesel" and less "gasoline" (or, the opposite). Some very modern refineries can do a very-very little tweak in that sense, using a process called "Cracking", but this is VERY expensive, so, very little usage to my knowledge.
So, what ever engines (..or heating systems !!!) are out there, when you bring one barrel of oil in, the proportion of Diesel and gasoline remain the same at the output !
And, in such a case, changing the price (of Diesel or Gasoline), do not have an kind of stable direct effect !
Typically, see France, where there are so many Diesel, ..because in the past, the Diesel price was much cheaper than gasoline ! Now, ..it is the opposite !!!
True, a Diesel engine use, a little less fuel (..in Gallons, but remember, Diesel is heavier than gasoline, and in the energy side, the weight is THE base, ..NOT the volume !!) than gasoline, but, the "advantage" is getting thinner and thinner !!
So, what ever engines (..or heating systems !!!) are out there, when you bring one barrel of oil in, the proportion of Diesel and gasoline remain the same at the output !
And, in such a case, changing the price (of Diesel or Gasoline), do not have an kind of stable direct effect !
Typically, see France, where there are so many Diesel, ..because in the past, the Diesel price was much cheaper than gasoline ! Now, ..it is the opposite !!!
True, a Diesel engine use, a little less fuel (..in Gallons, but remember, Diesel is heavier than gasoline, and in the energy side, the weight is THE base, ..NOT the volume !!) than gasoline, but, the "advantage" is getting thinner and thinner !!
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 03-17-2015 at 01:36 AM.