skiahh

I'm not sure what you mean about inferior peak power output. A diesel is designed to produce peak power over a wide range of RPMs, starting fairly low which helps with that off the line dig. It definitely peters out at high RPMs, though, where a gas engine has to be run close to its redline to achieve its peak power.

Mileage vs the cost of fuel. I hear this one a lot from the "purists" who spout this, but don't mention that in a large part of the country, diesel is about the same (+/- a dime) as premium fuel and gets 20%+ more mpg.

Diesel has inherently about 20-30% more energy per unit (gallon). So, technically, even a .40 premium when fuel is above $1.20 is a bargain.

We have a Cayenne diesel and it's pretty sporty, for a large SUV with 7000# of towing capacity. The Macan? I'm very interested in seeing how it turns out with the diesel.

1MORLAP

Regular at $1.99 and Diesel at $3.29 is the main issue IMHO.

Slow Guy

You run regular in the Macan? I run Premium (as the manual states) which is typically .40 - .50 increase over Reg.

I'm not disputing the "premium cost" of diesel fuel which to me doesn't seem justified at all. At this time (when fuel prices have dropped so dramatically) the delta between diesel and Premium fuel is quite high, back several months ago it (the delta) wasn't nearly as high.

Who knows how long it will stay this way? I have a feeling the oil cos. will figure out how to get the prices back where they were in short order.

fincher

I doubt gasoline prices will stay this low and, yes, I would only use Premium if I owned a high-end gas vehicle. To me, the decision on gas vs. diesel is not based on fuel costs but I do see how it plays a role for many.

1MORLAP

All I am saying is when people see a sign at a gas station that says 1.99 (they often just list the lowest gas price), and then in Yellow 3.29 with DIESEL spelled next to it... well they get discouraged. In Europe I have never seen Diesel for more than cheapest gas is, and that has been consistent for years. Here prices jump around. Much tougher climate to sell diesels. I have considered one numerous times, but never quite pulled the trigger.

fincher

Well, fuel pricing is one obstacle. Another one is how diesel is perceived as being noisy (like trucks and diesel cars from the late 70s) and another is the perception diesel is bad environmentally, when in fact modern diesels burn cleaner than gasoline due to the AdBlue (urea).

Certainly, diesel is not for everyone. It is, however, a great option. The torque is tremendous for daily driving and getting 30+ mpg highway is good, too.

roule

You have completely ignored the role of the transmission!!! With a fast-shifting multispeed transmission, it makes no practical difference what the engine's torque is at the crankshaft. All that matters is what the tires see. Refresh your understanding of the relationship of power and torque to see why the engine with peak horsepower almost always is preferable in modern vehicles:
http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

I suppose it is dangerous to generalize, but in the automotive world, diesel engines are sized and tuned to provide relatively less power but relatively more low-RPM torque than the equivalent gasoline engine that would be offered on the same chassis. The benefit of offering a lower-power engine also shows up in fuel economy, too, so apples-to-apples comparisons are not as straightforward as one might think.

Let's ignore fuel chemistry for a moment and simply ask ourselves what engine characteristics we would want in a Macan. It depends on what you intend to do with your vehicle. One can't have it all, so we trade off power and torque curves, emissions, durability, weight, cost, maintainability, noise, and many other things to please the most customers.

And while Americans all claim to love infinite low-RPM torque, the reality is that most drivers on the road today really prefer relatively more horsepower instead of maximum torque. Why? Cost and lack of real vehicle performance advantage from diesel for the way most people use their vehicles. If you support diesels, then write to your congressman and tell him to eliminate the wasteful ethanol and corn subsidies that have so distorted the fuel market in the USA.

Unlike fincher, most people don't drive 20k miles per year. Most drivers -- and all Macan drivers- drive automatic transmissions that already shift for them, faster and more efficiently than they ever could by themselves, negating the feel of engine torque that a manual transmission pilot would feel with every shift.

While not all people care about other factors, in the end cost plays a dominant role, and again very few people are willing to wait 3 years like fincher did for a diesel engine to pay off (and to achieve that payoff, remember that fincher drove about 30% more miles per year than the average US driver).

"Sportiness", whatever that exactly means, can only objectively be measured in vehicle dynamic performance, and with the exception of endurance racing (Le Mans) where fuel stops become very time-crucial events, almost no racers prefer the heavier diesel engine.

Fuel cost is for you and you alone to calculate based on where you drive and how you drive. But I don't think I'm in the minority in finding diesel fuel to offer no significant savings if any versus gasoline. Note also that just because diesel inherently has ~20% more chemical energy in it, that doesn't mean you achieve 20% greater vehicle economy or power. The specific engine may or may not be tuned for peak efficiency, but there is no getting around the fact that a diesel engine weighs more than the equivalent power gasoline engine. That in turn may translate into more vehicle weight, again depending on the specific vehicle. Greater rotational mass also means that the all things being equal, a diesel is less responsive to throttle inputs, and therefore less engaging on dynamic racecourses for those who do the driving themselves. If you just hold the pedal to the floor and let the electronics dial back the power to save you from yourself, then we're into another discussion altogether.

Bottom line, I consider the Macan to be essentially Porsche's attempt at selling Americans an AWD sportwagon, supersized for pudgy Americans but still much more like a sports car than a utility vehicle. It will be great to see new engine and transmission options as we go forward, but my point remains: Americans aren't switching to diesels until there is no better choice. That day has not come.

Oh, and if torque off the line is the very most important thing to you, then electric vehicles have the clear advantage there. Maybe Porsche will surprise us all by offering a series diesel-electric hybrid powertrain that offers the range of a diesel and the amazing off-line traction of an electric. The performance would be amazing, but only if one ignores the weight, cost, and complexity issues relative to America's current subsidized ethanol-diluted gasoline.

fincher

Last summer here, diesel (being relatively flat price-wise) was priced the same as regular gas. So I ask, if premium gas and diesel were priced the same, how would that change the cost perspective?

I just think Porsche recognizes there is a market for diesels here. The Cayenne diesel is popular so that probably helped with bringing a Macan diesel here next year.

I am not familiar with PDK much. Not sure if PDK is in the Cayenne diesel. My Touareg TDI has the 8-speed Aisin tranny. Super-smooth. I would imagine Porsche will address any PDK issues with the diesel.

A diesel/hybrid would be cool, too. My boss has a Tesla. Excellent vehicle. The range is the big issue for me.

roule

Gasbuddy.com for Chicago, IL:

regular gas (not applicable to the Macan):
$2.23 - $2.96 per gallon

premium gas:
$2.54 - $3.49 per gallon

diesel:
$2.49 - $4.09 per gallon


It's great to see options, but judging on how Porsche configured and priced the Macan S and the Macan S Diesel currently available in Europe, as well as the fact that diesel costs as much or more that premium fuel in many markets, the bottom line is this:

the Macan S Diesel forgoes ~80 hp and over a second in 0-100km time in order to eke out more fuel economy (tbv) than the Macan S. It's your decision, but if saving money and fuel is your goal, then why look at the Macan in the first place?

fincher

Who said saving money on fuel was my goal?

roule

You previously mentioned that range is a big deal to you. The Macan Diesel (260hp) is rated for ~600 mile range, the Macan S (340hp) is ~400 miles (if you believe the fuel economy estimates, which the Macan seems not to achieve in the real world). So if that extra mileage between fillups is worth 80 horsepower to you, then go for it.

To most Americans, sales show that relatively few people prioritize tank range as the most important feature of their car.

Note also that the greatest range cars these days are hybrids:
http://wot.motortrend.com/top-10-veh...ip-255025.html

fincher

Range meaning how often I have to refuel. I get fuel every 10-12 days. Fewer trips to refuel is great for me but maybe not for you. I have taken 650-mile road trips without stopping to fuel.

I get you don't care for diesels. You have an answer for everything. I like diesels. I like that Porsche is bringing the Macan diesel here. It will sell well because there is a demand for it.

roule

This is precisely where we disagree. Thank you for noting that I use facts to justify my assertions, I do believe that intelligent discussion requires that we "have an answer for everything".

I'm not trying to say diesel is bad, I'd just like to know where you come up with the idea that there is significant demand for diesel cars in the USA

In the late Dubya Bush years as gasoline prices soared, many claimed the time was ripe for the diesel car sales to take off. Carmakers finally started offering modern diesel engine options in cars. The results sadly have not been very encouraging: after the recent diesel push, 3% of all vehicles sold in the USA in 2013 are diesel powered. Most of these are trucks. VW, the sales leader with over 75% market share for diesel cars in the USA, sold a grand total of 56,480 TDI models in the USA in 2013. Today with temporarily low gas prices, they are struggling to move TDI models off the lots.

If Porsche wants to bring over a diesel engine, it is not because there is huge consumer demand for it, it is because Porsche needs to offset its other gas-guzzling Macan models with a relative fuel sipper to meet CAFE requirements.

I also predict that Porsche USA, like Porsche UK, will have to give away the diesel models at the same (or even a lower price) than the gasoline models because sports vehicle buyers strongly prefer dynamic vehicle performance over economy and range. However, this is all good news for those diesel enthusiasts who want maximum range between fillups.

fincher

Diesel will never take over gasoline here. Never. Gonna spin it that I said it would? If you think Porsche will have to 'give away' diesels... That would be great! Maybe I should wait for such a day.

You do write well and you can turn a sentence. Will give you props for that. Facts? You twist things to your beliefs. And, of course, your beliefs must be facts.

Sven76

Porsche will only bring them to the U.S. if there is demand, because over here I have to wait 10 months to get my Macan S Diesel (delivery in April / May). Same price as the S gasoline, for me it was the fuel economy. My typical highway speed is 105mph+, fuel economy for a gasoline SUV is pretty bad at these speed. Will not make such a difference at 60-70mph.... And it was really how often I need to refuel, as fuel itself is paid by my employer (company car). Accept refuelling every 250miles for my Caymar R, for the Macan I want something different. But colleague has the Turbo, fantastic car, specked very sporty, while mine is more comfortable.