chassis

Fully agree. Every day I experience a situation where the Porsche designed systems would have either crashed the vehicle, or would have created an objectively unsafe situation, if the driver did not proactively intervene and deactivate the system.

Example is activating ACC or PID when a car ahead is not recognized by the forward-looking radar, but in fact a car ahead is within the target acquisition range, for example in gently rolling hilly terrain. This means the radar cannot see the car ahead on the downslope of the hill, even when the driver in the following car (the Cayenne with ACC and PID) is in visual contact with the car ahead. The driver's eyes are higher above the road surface than the radome, so geometry explains line of sight differences.

Next, the following vehicle (the Cayenne with ACC and PID) crests the hill, and the radome is pointing directly at the car ahead. But no car is detected. This is a flaw in the system. This flaw happens repeatably and predictably.

Next, the car ahead comes to a stop at a light, when the ACC radar still has not detected the car ahead. The driver in the Cayenne with ACC and PID has the choice to wait for the system to acquire the target and apply emergency braking, or to intervene and deactivate the system and stop normally and safely.

The use case described above happens every day for me. I need to step in and save the car from Porsche's engineers who have designed an objectively unsafe product.

Nate G

​​​​​I do not feel this is limited to Porsche. I have also experienced similar situations with ACC in my BMW X3 in all your examples and also on multi lane freeways with curves and bends. ​​For example, my X3 would mistaken a car ahead but in the lane next to me as being in my lane and would start braking. Likewise, if I am approaching a car in the same lane and that car has entered a bend ahead of me, the X3 would keep holding its current set speed until I also entered the bend. I anticipate and expect events like this to happen so I know when to use and not use the system and to be ready to take corrective action at all times.

I hesitate to call these occurrences as “flaws,” as the ACC does work as it was designed. I feel “limitation” is a better term, and manufacturers describe these well in users manual with graphic examples. The person operating it must understand the basic concept on how ACC works (line of sight), then that person can understand the limitations of ACC and why it will behave the way it does sometimes so that person is not surprised and is ready to take corrective action at all times. Perhaps manufacturers should require some sort of “check out” like they do in aviation before a pilot flies a new-to-him/her airplane.

rob944s2

So Nate, at what point does someone say “Hey Porsche, you charged us for a feature that you didn’t deliver, we’d like a refund.”

I suppose they would go about enabling the feature before providing refunds but doesn’t seem like that happens often with a major car manufacturer.

Nate G

Right now, I am currently collecting information. I am doing my due diligence of giving Porsche the opportunity to demonstrate that the purchased feature, Traffic Jam Assist (as part of Lane Keep Assist), is installed and does work as advertised or if it can be fixed. What if it is an error on my part? However, I am doubtful. How is a Porsche service advisor, Porsche Pro, sales rep, and even a service tech not familiar with this feature? I am polling the forums to see if this is a problem among many Macans with this feature and not just mine. So far, you, another person at a different forum, and I have reported a similar problem. I am waiting for more people to chime in.

My plan is to contact Porsche of North America. If the feature was left out of USA-spec Macans inadvertently, then they may try to fix it. Is it missing hardware that would require a retrofit? Could it be simple programming? I do not know, but will Porsche dealers have the equipment to take care of this in a reasonable timeframe? It seems other members have been able to activate it in their Macans through programming. Refer to to the "Macan Coding" thread post #278 by JUN6817: https://rennlist.com/forums/macan/11...coding-16.html. However, it is important to note that JUN6817 is from Japan per his profile and the picture he posted shows speed in kph. Macans sold there may be configured differently than those sold in the USA. What if Porsche can install/active TJA. Will they issue a recall?

Now, if the feature was left out intentionally, maybe because of regulations or fear of liability, then they cannot fix it, or install/active TJA. They should not have advertised the feature as they did. In that case, they may offer a refund, but I feel a refund of the feature is not enough. My decision to commit time, effort, stress, money, and more to a $100K+ car was influenced by this option they advertised. I feel they owe much more than just a refund of the option, maybe going as far as buying back my car for what I paid including taxes and optional add-ons such as warranties minus mileage used plus compensation for time and effort. If they cannot resolve this issue to my or other Macan owners satisfaction, if others do side with me, then the next step would be potentially the legal route, either on my own or through class action if more people can please speak up.

According to Good Car Bad Car, there have been 198,878 Macans sold in the USA from 2014-2023. Of these 198,878 Macans, how many were sold with LKA/TJA? I am not sure how much pricing has been, but currently the option costs $800. If even a quarter of these Macans were sold with it, and assuming a price of $800, that is almost $40M that Porsche has collected.

Personally, I just want the feature to work. Others and I have had great discussions on the pros and cons of driving assistance features, but the main topic of this thread is whether or not TJA works as advertised. What is your sentiment on the issue? If TJA was misrepresented and cannot be fixed, would you let it be, or be happy with a refund of the option, or do you also feel like Porsche owes more than just that? As for the others who are silent. Are you really OK with having paid money for something you should have received?

DHL

+1

If the dealership cannot prove to you that this function works as advertised, then demand a refund of your $800. This is a lot easier and cleaner than waiting for Porsche engineering to retrofit something they never had working in the first place. Or if you just want to return the car because this feature is key to why you bought it, I think you can have the lemon laws applied.

I believe you mentioned you owned a BMW X3M40i. So did I, but I never used any of the nanny state driving aids such as lane keep assist. Personally, I could not stand the X3 even though I have been a BMW Msport customer going back to the 80's. My Macan GTS blows away the X3 in ways that matter to me, performance. It's why I bought a Porsche in the first place. Not for driving aids.

rob944s2

On the one hand, I feel it's unreasonable to expect Porsche to buy the car back. Not only does it seem unreasonable to me, but unlikely to be enforced legally. On the other hand, I've seen stories of how Porsche has treated their customers unfairly, denying warranty work for many things I feel should have been covered. That makes me feel like it's reasonable to push back when Porsche gives you the opportunity.

Personally I'd be happy with them acknowledging that they advertised a feature that the car does not have, and offering a complete refund of what I paid for it. If it's possible to enable the feature then I would prefer that, I wouldn't even bother for payment of months where it wasn't available.

While you're collecting advertised features that the car doesn't actually have, also see my thread on Porsche Car Connect.

Nate G

An update. It seems that a sales rep at the dealer where I am currently having my Macan serviced at are at a disagreement here. He test drove my car, and states Traffic Jam Assist works as it was intended.

He states that:

• Traffic Jam Assist works as intended because the car is able to utilize its radar and "laser" sensors (yes, he said laser which the Macan does not have) for gas and brake, stop and go, despite the manual clearly showing ACC and TJA as two separate entities.
• Traffic Jam Assist is not a steering relevant function, when the owners manual and marketing materials clearly states "steering intervention" multiple times in the context of Traffic Jam Assist.

He further admits that:

• The green lines on the ACC display turn to gray below 40 MPH, which suggests that Traffic Jam Assist did not active, even though he states it is active because stop and go works (again, that is ACC).
• The green steering while icon did not display, and this is icon is what indicates Traffic Jam Assist is active.
• The green steering while icon does not apply to Macans built for the USA, which is a smoking gun as Traffic Jam Assist is marketed for USA spec'd Macans.

I suggested showing my evidence here to him to explain how the Porsche literature repeatedly states "steering intervention" in the context of Traffic Jam Assist and how it was advertised, however, he does not seem to be interested. He states he is well-experienced with Porsche models. I am not sure if he is confusing the Macan with a different model like the Cayenne. A previous user here also thought TJA was not steering relevant until I presented my evidence. I get the impression that the sales rep was brushing off my concerns. I told him about my findings on the forums, and he states a lot of information there is false.

I wish to understand from their perspective why they think Traffic Jam Assist is working as intended, and I wish for them to understand why I think it is not. I really would hate to go beyond having a simple, civilized discussion.

At this point, I am thinking about speaking to a manager to show him my findings, but I am not sure if he would be the right person to talk to, or if it would matter. Whether or not I can get the dealer to admit that TJA is not installed and working as intended does not change the fact that TJA was misrepresented, although it would be easier if they did. I may need to contact Porsche of North America as the next step. And, if still no resolution, then I think I have enough evidence to consider legal options (e.g. lemon law, market misrepresentation, etc).

That being said, in regards to Traffic Jam Assist not installed/working in USA spec Macans, the evidence I have presented on this thread so far (see previous posts) shows that I have a valid concern, right?

chassis

What do you want? To sell the car back or lemon it?

Nate G

At a minimum, sell the car for the purchase price which includes all optional addons (e.g. warranties, service plans, window tinting, special coatings, etc) and sales tax paid, either through negotiation, or pre-legal mediation, or through legal judgment. Or, have lemon law applied. Both will achieve the same effect. Again, this is a minimum. This does not account for losses/damages of time and effort. My decision in committing to this purchase was influenced with the feature working as advertised.

I did contact Porsche of North America and have opened a case. I have copied them in on this thread. They state they will follow up with me tomorrow.

rob944s2

I definitely think it’s correct and valid. Unfortunately, you and me may be the only two people with Macans that are aware this feature should be present, and also care that it isn’t.

chassis

Tall order. Depreciation will be applied. Plus your legal costs. How much have you decided to spend to litigate this?

What is your experience as a party in legal disputes?

Asking for clarity - are you rather feeling buyer’s remorse and seeking a reason to dump the car?

Nate G

You and I may seem to be the only Rennlist members who care about the paid feature not being present. There must be many more Macan owners with the feature out there with similar concerns.

I agree that it would be reasonable for proportionate depreciation from use, wear, tear, and mileage be subtracted as I am still driving and using the car.

So far, I have discussed civil action. If I go the civil route, then I would pursue for legal costs.

However, legal action is not off the table, and I might not have to spend anything if I get the Federal Trade Commission involved who investigates and enforces Truth in Advertising laws: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/topi...th-advertising. According to the FTC, "when consumers see or hear an advertisement, whether it’s on the Internet, radio or television, or anywhere else, federal law says that ad must be truthful, not misleading, and, when appropriate, backed by scientific evidence." Recalling my previous post, if even a quarter of the 198,878 Macans sold in the USA from 2014-2023 were sold with LKA/TJA, assuming a price of $800, that is $40 million that Porsche has collected for a feature that does not exist.

A search on Porsche.com for new inventory of Macans show that Lake Keep Assist incl Traffic Jam Assist is a commonly purchased feature. See this link for a search within 500 miles of zip code 90210 showing 28 Macans supposedly equipped with TJA in this area alone (as of 3/26/2024 @ 11:45 AM): https://finder.porsche.com/us/en-US/...&order=closest

These Macans have LKA/TJA purchased, but are they equipped? A subpoena of these Macans can answer this question.

To answer your question, I have had experience in disputes.

EDIT: To answer your additional question, I would have been happy if my feature worked and it was a simple oversight either on my part or Porsche's part. I purchased a specific product in mind, and the car I was sold was not it. Most owners do not seem to care about TJA, but imagine if cruise control was not installed. Not only is it a feature important to many people, but it is advertised as an included feature. If I bought a new house specifically spec'd with a fireplace, prewiring for electronics, or any other feature, I would also have an issue with that. The builder may try to remedy this by retrofitting after the fact, but imagine the nightmare it would be trying to do so in a house that was already built. As I described in a previous post, Porsche could try to retrofit the Macans, but could this be done in a timely manner? I am driving a car that was not built to my wishes and expectations, it was not built as agreed, and it continues to depreciate as time goes by as this issue goes unresolved. So far, I have made multiple good faith efforts with Porsche to resolve this only to see today my service invoice state "traffic jam assist is working intended (sic)" refusing to allow me to show them my findings. I am trying to work with them, and they are not working with me. Considering all the above, is this buyer's remorse? Maybe. Is Porsche responsible for it? Absolutely.

EDIT: Updated Porsche.com inventory search info and link.

Snowytrail

Most of the cars in that list only have LCA, a few have LKA and it looks like the LKA/TJA only applies to the '23's and '24's so I think the total out there is much less than you may believe. I think the best you are going to do is get your $800 back unless you go full on legal. I agree that it is misleading and Porsche seems to have conflated Innodrive(from Cayenne,Taycan, Panamera) with what is installed on the Macan.

Nate G

Thank you for letting my know the LKA/TJA only applies to '23 and '24 Macan models. I refined the search to include only new Macans. I have edited the previous link to reflect the new filter. Another search on Porsche.com for new inventory of Macans show that Lake Keep Assist incl Traffic Jam Assist is a commonly purchased feature. See this updated link for a search within 500 miles of zip code 90210 showing 28 new Macans supposedly equipped with TJA in this area alone (as of 3/26/2024 @ 11:45 AM): https://finder.porsche.com/us/en-US/...&order=closest. I would say this is indeed a common feature. I have edited my original post with the updated info. Here is an example of what I found in search:



And, here is an example of one of the listings clearly showing Lake Keep Assist (LKA) incl. Traffic Jam Assist.



EDIT: I did a search of ALL new '23 and '24 Macans within 500 miles of 90210 and found 65 pages of listings. With the LKA filter enabled, only 2 pages of listings showed up. So, about 3% of the Macans have LKA/TJA. Not as much as I used in my theoretical examples. Assuming about 51,000 model year '23 and '24 Macans sold based on sales numbers for years 2022 and 2023, an estimated 3% or 1,530 Macans equipped with TJA for $800 still accounts for a considerable amount of money Porsche collected on a feature that does not exist, about $1.2 million. No matter the dollar amount, Porsche is still liable civilly and/or legally, not only for the money collected, but also for damages and fines.

SirLanceLang

I am located in south America. Here it is not possible to order the Macan with LKA and TJA. When I got the car I connected to the Car with Piwis 3, and then 30 minutes after I could drive away with LKA and TJA working. The car stays in the middle of the lines - and does it surprisingly good! It works from 30km/h. I have a Porsche 911 (992) from 2023 as well. The LKA in this really sucks. Bounces between the lines.
Look in this thread for a post from the 06-24-2024 by user: JUN6817 -06-24-20e23, 11:1006 AM 06-24-2023, 11:16 AM 06-24-2023, 11:16 AM
https://rennlist.com/forums/macan/11...coding-19.html