approx cost to swap out pccb?
12-05-2015, 01:02 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
12-05-2015, 02:12 PM
#17
Speaking of misinformation, are you SURE about this statement? There is a thread in the GT3 forum that has 3 guys (iirc, at least one in Europe and one in North America) reporting how their pccb are toast after only a handful of track days. Pccb longevity has a LOT to do with the track and the DRIVER.
12-05-2015, 02:58 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
And there's also plenty of discussion over there by GT3 owners tracking them and getting a lot of life out of them. And the life of ANY braking components has a lot to do with the track and driver. The blanket assumption that PCCBs go to dust on the track in a few weeks is nonsense.
Some people will get a ton of life out of them on track for the following reasons:
1) The only track a few times a year, so the car is sold and gone before the rotors get a chance to wear away
2) The brakes are not being used to their full capacity/potential, so they don't get hot enough to start wearing.
If either of those reasons fit your description, then you're good. However, some people can't or don't realize #2. Dunning Kruger effect. Google it.
Most of the misinformation out there about PCCB is about how they last forever and are ideal for track use. NOT the other way around as you suggest. How many times have dealers, reviewers, and posters make comments about how PCCB should be a must option if you track? Way too many times.
You're right, there is some fear out there by some who are intermediate drivers or rarely go to the track that their PCCB will fall apart. Those fears are unfounded. That doesn't mean a blanket statement like "Even on the track, folks are getting a ton of life out of the Gen 3 PCCBs" can be made, though, because it's NOT true. That is misinformation. Potential for premature wear on track should definitely be considered and not blown off.
12-05-2015, 02:58 PM
#19
I don't know about Porsche, but with BMW the booster is different as is the ABS software. If this is the same on the Porsche, and given PTV (how it uses the rear brakes) I wouldn't even consider swapping rings on a PCCB equipped car. Too many variables IMHO. I went steels as if I have an off and chip a rotor I'm out major $$$.
12-05-2015, 03:03 PM
#20
What are you getting at? Nobody is making any assumptions. We are only reporting real world findings.
Some people will get a ton of life out of them on track for the following reasons:
1) The only track a few times a year, so the car is sold and gone before the rotors get a chance to wear away
2) The brakes are not being used to their full capacity/potential, so they don't get hot enough to start wearing.
If either of those reasons fit your description, then you're good. However, some people can't or don't realize #2. Dunning Kruger effect. Google it.
Most of the misinformation out there about PCCB is about how they last forever and are ideal for track use. NOT the other way around as you suggest. How many times have dealers, reviewers, and posters make comments about how PCCB should be a must option if you track? Way too many times.
You're right, there is some fear out there by some who are intermediate drivers or rarely go to the track that their PCCB will fall apart. Those fears are unfounded. That doesn't mean a blanket statement like "Even on the track, folks are getting a ton of life out of the Gen 3 PCCBs" can be made, though, because it's NOT true. That is misinformation. Potential for premature wear on track should definitely be considered and not blown off.
Some people will get a ton of life out of them on track for the following reasons:
1) The only track a few times a year, so the car is sold and gone before the rotors get a chance to wear away
2) The brakes are not being used to their full capacity/potential, so they don't get hot enough to start wearing.
If either of those reasons fit your description, then you're good. However, some people can't or don't realize #2. Dunning Kruger effect. Google it.
Most of the misinformation out there about PCCB is about how they last forever and are ideal for track use. NOT the other way around as you suggest. How many times have dealers, reviewers, and posters make comments about how PCCB should be a must option if you track? Way too many times.
You're right, there is some fear out there by some who are intermediate drivers or rarely go to the track that their PCCB will fall apart. Those fears are unfounded. That doesn't mean a blanket statement like "Even on the track, folks are getting a ton of life out of the Gen 3 PCCBs" can be made, though, because it's NOT true. That is misinformation. Potential for premature wear on track should definitely be considered and not blown off.
And I learned a new term - Dunning Kruger, that explains a lot
12-05-2015, 03:05 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
12-05-2015, 03:47 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't know about Porsche, but with BMW the booster is different as is the ABS software. If this is the same on the Porsche, and given PTV (how it uses the rear brakes) I wouldn't even consider swapping rings on a PCCB equipped car. Too many variables IMHO. I went steels as if I have an off and chip a rotor I'm out major $$$.
12-05-2015, 04:45 PM
#23
12-05-2015, 06:06 PM
#25
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by RayDBonz
I wonder if Dunning and Kruger tested their hypothesis on surgeons?
Not you of course Joe, but I know a handful. . .
Not you of course Joe, but I know a handful. . .
12-05-2015, 06:21 PM
#26
Racer
12-05-2015, 06:41 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
+1
I would be concerned with the software change as I'm sure it must change for the type of brakes (steel/PCCB) due to friction point. Gotta affect braking, ABS, Traction systems, etc.
I would be concerned with the software change as I'm sure it must change for the type of brakes (steel/PCCB) due to friction point. Gotta affect braking, ABS, Traction systems, etc.
I don't know about Porsche, but with BMW the booster is different as is the ABS software. If this is the same on the Porsche, and given PTV (how it uses the rear brakes) I wouldn't even consider swapping rings on a PCCB equipped car. Too many variables IMHO. I went steels as if I have an off and chip a rotor I'm out major $$$.
12-06-2015, 01:37 AM
#28
So...in speccing my GT4 my one dilemma came down to the brakes. The lighter weight and the reported feel of the ceramics always appealed to me as well as anecdotal evidence from friends that have tried it and has it on their cars. A little background- our track in Tulsa- Hallett, is a technical "hard on brakes" track. I wore out my OEM pads and steel rotors on my turbo in about 3 track days
Lots of threshold braking! I put on some giro disks and PFC pads that will go basically unused to the next buyer of the car. I plan to do at least 6-8 track days a year if not more, though with work that's likely wishful thinking. I read about a million threads trying to figure out the PCCB or not dilemma. In the medical field we use the data obtained through RCT's (randomized control trials) to help dictate our practice
That's not gonna happen in this debate, thus I'm gonna put my own trial to the test. I plan on running ceramics and if they go I will switch back to steels as someone mentioned earlier. As Joe stated there are a lot of variables involved and will just have to see how it goes. Should be a lot more exciting than a lot of medical trials I reckon
Lots of threshold braking! I put on some giro disks and PFC pads that will go basically unused to the next buyer of the car. I plan to do at least 6-8 track days a year if not more, though with work that's likely wishful thinking. I read about a million threads trying to figure out the PCCB or not dilemma. In the medical field we use the data obtained through RCT's (randomized control trials) to help dictate our practice That's not gonna happen in this debate, thus I'm gonna put my own trial to the test. I plan on running ceramics and if they go I will switch back to steels as someone mentioned earlier. As Joe stated there are a lot of variables involved and will just have to see how it goes. Should be a lot more exciting than a lot of medical trials I reckon
12-06-2015, 04:10 AM
#29
Platinum Dealership
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I have had great experiences with my GT3RS track cars on ceramics and I ordered the GT4 with ceramics.
In regards to usage- if you bed them in properly, they do last a really really long time. You have to properly transfer pad material to the rotor by heating them up and cooling them off a few times- if you just drive like a granny for 1000 miles then bomb on them at the track they will wear faster. The pads will carbonize (like han solo for star wars fans) and then they will simply abrade the rotors.
To OP I will buy your unused pccb rotors for 9k. Let me know.
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Hugs.
In regards to usage- if you bed them in properly, they do last a really really long time. You have to properly transfer pad material to the rotor by heating them up and cooling them off a few times- if you just drive like a granny for 1000 miles then bomb on them at the track they will wear faster. The pads will carbonize (like han solo for star wars fans) and then they will simply abrade the rotors.
To OP I will buy your unused pccb rotors for 9k. Let me know.
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Hugs.
12-06-2015, 05:31 AM
#30
Don't know if this changed with the latest generation, but I saw plenty of PCCB factory equipped 997 GT3 cars at the track with steel rotors, without any issues.