approx cost to swap out pccb?
12-06-2015, 12:51 PM
#32
heat. I think heat management is the key to longevity just as with steels.
If you consistently super heated them and do not allow them to cool down before going out again, you will kill/crack them. easy. steels are just cheaper.
Conversely, by being mechanically sympathetic with the brakes (i.e. not too many laps and always have a cool down lap, you may prolong the disc longevity). True that novices may not get their brakes hot enough but even regular track rats can benefit from just being prudent about the number of laps/ track time before pitting and doing a cool down lap....
it's not just one thing. It's a whole host of behaviours.
If you consistently super heated them and do not allow them to cool down before going out again, you will kill/crack them. easy. steels are just cheaper.
Conversely, by being mechanically sympathetic with the brakes (i.e. not too many laps and always have a cool down lap, you may prolong the disc longevity). True that novices may not get their brakes hot enough but even regular track rats can benefit from just being prudent about the number of laps/ track time before pitting and doing a cool down lap....
it's not just one thing. It's a whole host of behaviours.
12-06-2015, 01:24 PM
#33
Nordschleife Master
I have had great experiences with my GT3RS track cars on ceramics and I ordered the GT4 with ceramics.
In regards to usage- if you bed them in properly, they do last a really really long time. You have to properly transfer pad material to the rotor by heating them up and cooling them off a few times- if you just drive like a granny for 1000 miles then bomb on them at the track they will wear faster. The pads will carbonize (like han solo for star wars fans) and then they will simply abrade the rotors.
To OP I will buy your unused pccb rotors for 9k. Let me know.
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Hugs.
In regards to usage- if you bed them in properly, they do last a really really long time. You have to properly transfer pad material to the rotor by heating them up and cooling them off a few times- if you just drive like a granny for 1000 miles then bomb on them at the track they will wear faster. The pads will carbonize (like han solo for star wars fans) and then they will simply abrade the rotors.
To OP I will buy your unused pccb rotors for 9k. Let me know.
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Hugs.
40 days out of PCCB rotors is about what I would expect. That being said 40 days on rotors is still too rich for my blood and the cost/benefit isn't worth it to me. At that rate, my GT3 would be needing new pccb rotors after a little over 1 year of ownership. OEM iron rotors last about 20+ days, and the AP rotors I'm running right now look like they'll last close to 30 days. For my budget, iron works great.
12-06-2015, 01:34 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
heat. I think heat management is the key to longevity just as with steels.
If you consistently super heated them and do not allow them to cool down before going out again, you will kill/crack them. easy. steels are just cheaper.
Conversely, by being mechanically sympathetic with the brakes (i.e. not too many laps and always have a cool down lap, you may prolong the disc longevity). True that novices may not get their brakes hot enough but even regular track rats can benefit from just being prudent about the number of laps/ track time before pitting and doing a cool down lap....
it's not just one thing. It's a whole host of behaviours.
If you consistently super heated them and do not allow them to cool down before going out again, you will kill/crack them. easy. steels are just cheaper.
Conversely, by being mechanically sympathetic with the brakes (i.e. not too many laps and always have a cool down lap, you may prolong the disc longevity). True that novices may not get their brakes hot enough but even regular track rats can benefit from just being prudent about the number of laps/ track time before pitting and doing a cool down lap....
it's not just one thing. It's a whole host of behaviours.
12-08-2015, 09:19 AM
#36
Former Vendor
PCCB is the way to go.
Why order a car with pccb and shelf them and downgrade to standard brake?.
Hundred Corvette, Camaro and now Viper come with CCM and track their cars w/o any issues.
Why order a car with pccb and shelf them and downgrade to standard brake?.
Hundred Corvette, Camaro and now Viper come with CCM and track their cars w/o any issues.
12-12-2015, 05:44 AM
#37
Yeah joe.
Gt4 will be not be a dedicated track car but a car and coffee sort of track car where I turn up to exercise the car, have a few laps of fun and plenty of chatter in the paddock. What's the point of a meet if the car doesn't see action. 😀
I wouldn't encourage any owner to treat their pccb car with the same abandon as with steels. Btw, I concur with the new gen AP discs. Much longer lasting than PF and longer lasting on my csl.
Gt4 will be not be a dedicated track car but a car and coffee sort of track car where I turn up to exercise the car, have a few laps of fun and plenty of chatter in the paddock. What's the point of a meet if the car doesn't see action. 😀
I wouldn't encourage any owner to treat their pccb car with the same abandon as with steels. Btw, I concur with the new gen AP discs. Much longer lasting than PF and longer lasting on my csl.
12-12-2015, 09:10 AM
#38
Instructor
Just yesterday I noticed that the GT3 PCCB option lists the same size rotors and calipers as the GT4, then I looked up the RS and the 918 and they all list the exact same size components for PCCB.
My question is "does Porsche only make one set of PCCB brakes and are peddling it for different models?"
Thanks
My question is "does Porsche only make one set of PCCB brakes and are peddling it for different models?"
Thanks
12-12-2015, 09:43 AM
#39
Just yesterday I noticed that the GT3 PCCB option lists the same size rotors and calipers as the GT4, then I looked up the RS and the 918 and they all list the exact same size components for PCCB.
My question is "does Porsche only make one set of PCCB brakes and are peddling it for different models?"
Thanks
My question is "does Porsche only make one set of PCCB brakes and are peddling it for different models?"
Thanks
I believe the rotors are all the same, but the 918 gets bigger calipers.
12-12-2015, 09:54 AM
#40
Drifting
Just yesterday I noticed that the GT3 PCCB option lists the same size rotors and calipers as the GT4, then I looked up the RS and the 918 and they all list the exact same size components for PCCB.
My question is "does Porsche only make one set of PCCB brakes and are peddling it for different models?"
Thanks
My question is "does Porsche only make one set of PCCB brakes and are peddling it for different models?"
Thanks
12-12-2015, 11:13 AM
#41
Racer
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Having just completed by break in period I haven't stomped on them yet but this will be my first weekend to really flog this car. Am I too late to do this right? Or should I modify the above? I'm sure the process may be subjective (like my self imposed break in) but I can hear the pads rubbing on all four corners when I brake lightly, as if they still need to bed in which seems very probable given that most miles have been spent between 3rd and 6th gears on long drives with few stops. Harder braking is quiet as it should be.
My prior car had PCCBs and I was told to 'just pound on 'em' and that seemed to work, and those brakes were so amazing there was no debate when I specced the new car. I track only 8-12 days/ year so yellow works for me. Coincidence that I planned all week to specifically abuse my brakes this weekend so glad I ran across this post! Thanks Ichiban for weighing in with some solid experience!! This is what I'll do this afternoon unless there's a better suggestion given the TYPE of mileage I've accumulated so far.
12-13-2015, 05:04 AM
#42
I am no expert but track pad break in is rather specific and always involves several hard stops from say 70mph cool down repeat and you r done.
whereas street pads just require normal driving and not be too hard on them for 100 miles or so.
I suspect the reason track pads are so specific is to prevent folks from just going on track and pounding on them thus ruining the brakes. If you had been adequately gentle on your driving during the 1,000 miles, then you should consider your pads broken in.
Otherwise on replacement, I would consult your service technician for the proper bedding procedures.
whereas street pads just require normal driving and not be too hard on them for 100 miles or so.
I suspect the reason track pads are so specific is to prevent folks from just going on track and pounding on them thus ruining the brakes. If you had been adequately gentle on your driving during the 1,000 miles, then you should consider your pads broken in.
Otherwise on replacement, I would consult your service technician for the proper bedding procedures.
12-13-2015, 06:10 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
I have had great experiences with my GT3RS track cars on ceramics and I ordered the GT4 with ceramics.
In regards to usage- if you bed them in properly, they do last a really really long time. You have to properly transfer pad material to the rotor by heating them up and cooling them off a few times- if you just drive like a granny for 1000 miles then bomb on them at the track they will wear faster. The pads will carbonize (like han solo for star wars fans) and then they will simply abrade the rotors.
To OP I will buy your unused pccb rotors for 9k. Let me know.
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Hugs.
In regards to usage- if you bed them in properly, they do last a really really long time. You have to properly transfer pad material to the rotor by heating them up and cooling them off a few times- if you just drive like a granny for 1000 miles then bomb on them at the track they will wear faster. The pads will carbonize (like han solo for star wars fans) and then they will simply abrade the rotors.
To OP I will buy your unused pccb rotors for 9k. Let me know.
I can write up the full pccb bedding procedure to be done immediately when you get the car but here is a synopsis:
Make 12-15 decels from 50-20mph at around .3G allowing 10-15 seconds in between
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool. Once cold-
Make 12-15 decels from 75-20 at around .5G
Allow 20-30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles without braking to allow brakes to cool.
Make 6-8 stops from 85-20mph at .7G
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 2-3 miles etc etc
Make 3 full effort braking stops from 60mph-0.
Allow 30 seconds in between.
Drive 4-5 miles. Park car outside or in cool temps to allow pad material that has transferred to rotors to harden naturally.
Voila.
Iron rotors are a shorter but similar process and only require about 20 total stops as opposed to the 35+ on pccb.
I did this on my RS and got 40+ track days on original rotors. I replaced various pagid pads 3-4 times in that span. Drove car on Laguna, Sonoma, Willow, Buttonwillow, Fontana, MSR Cresson. I used hoosiers, mpsc.
Another thing to consider on brake life is the tire. If you are running on hoosiers they will allow for a much higher threshold brake than on MPSC or P-zero etc. not sure of exact data but at least .1-.2G extra on brakes.
Last- if you drive with TCS/Stability control mode on and you are ham-fisted you will roast the rears. The porsche 'rear brake to save your traction control' leads to a lot of carbonized brakes.
Hugs.
Good info on the bedding process. I haven't seen that info shared before, so thank you. I did not perform this type of bedding process on my PCCB spyder which started to show signs of wear after only a handful of track days on OEM brake pads, so this may be a contributing factor to some cars showing pccb wear rates equal to or worse than iron rotors on track.
40 days out of PCCB rotors is about what I would expect. That being said 40 days on rotors is still too rich for my blood and the cost/benefit isn't worth it to me. At that rate, my GT3 would be needing new pccb rotors after a little over 1 year of ownership. OEM iron rotors last about 20+ days, and the AP rotors I'm running right now look like they'll last close to 30 days. For my budget, iron works great.
40 days out of PCCB rotors is about what I would expect. That being said 40 days on rotors is still too rich for my blood and the cost/benefit isn't worth it to me. At that rate, my GT3 would be needing new pccb rotors after a little over 1 year of ownership. OEM iron rotors last about 20+ days, and the AP rotors I'm running right now look like they'll last close to 30 days. For my budget, iron works great.
+1 on what Joe wrote plus I hate bedding in brakes, one of the reasons I love PFC11 compound on steel rotors.
Racing Brake could redefine running of CCB after more track proven twice refurbished rotor wear data starts becoming available. Its just who wants to go first and how quickly can they rack up 40 track days x 3...
Personally, its a debate about what pedal and steering feedback feel you like better and if you do like PCCB better how much will it cost you more then steel to run them per track day. Oh and how much do you mind dirty wheels or like yellow caliper
12-13-2015, 09:46 AM
#44
Former Vendor
Comment by Terry - A Ferrari F458 owner
For the money, the Racing Brake CCM rotors are the best deal. These are not the same as the OEM CCM rotors, but carbon silicon carbide all the way through and almost impossible to wear out. Last rotors you will ever need, but the pads will still require periodic replacement. I have the same material in my Mov'It rotors and they are virtually indestructible.
