PDK vs Manual
09-02-2015, 12:16 AM
#61
Rennlist Member
Good discussion and a fun read... thanks for your continued comments Pete. Can't wait till my GT4 arrives.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
09-02-2015, 12:59 AM
#62
Good discussion and a fun read... thanks for your continued comments Pete. Can't wait till my GT4 arrives.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
I jestI see what you're saying. I'm generally confused by all of this. I think it might have been an accident that the GT4 is pushing the right buttons. The competing dynamics of the stoic porsche enthusiast and the attractive entry magnet that is mopping up BMW and asian enthusiasts as the economic tides raise boats into this price range is leading to an interesting, but unresolvable discussion. I retreated from the "betrayal" of the 991GT3 to the sanctuary of some level of purity in the GT4, but I think it's generally temporary given the sentiment here towards broadening the attractiveness of the GT4. I'm going to have to learn to love cars for what what they are, and not what I wish they would be.
09-02-2015, 01:19 AM
#63
Three Wheelin'
Good discussion and a fun read... thanks for your continued comments Pete. Can't wait till my GT4 arrives.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
I would agree that for someone who's first sports car is a Cayman or even a Gt4, it's going to feel awfully analog.
09-02-2015, 08:38 AM
#65
Burning Brakes
I would also factor in RoW to make the discussion less gloomy. Only the US is so heavy on auto gearboxes. Most of the rest of the world are still driving stick, and on lots of challenging windy roads with lots of crowning and elevation changes... Even those in their 20's. That will change eventually, of course, but it's not as bleak worldwide as it may appear to us sitting in the US.
09-02-2015, 09:58 AM
#66
Drifting
I would also factor in RoW to make the discussion less gloomy. Only the US is so heavy on auto gearboxes. Most of the rest of the world are still driving stick, and on lots of challenging windy roads with lots of crowning and elevation changes... Even those in their 20's. That will change eventually, of course, but it's not as bleak worldwide as it may appear to us sitting in the US.
09-02-2015, 10:13 AM
#67
Burning Brakes
I'm not so sure about that. BMW made a 6MT version of the latest M5 and M6 only because the U.S. wanted one, and it was only offered in the U.S. I agree that manuals are more prevalent overall in ROW, but it seems that in the performance car segment, the U.S. may be hanging onto the manuals more tightly than elsewhere.
I was back in Northern Ireland a couple of weeks back and it reminded my just how few cars had autos, and how challenging the roads were.
09-02-2015, 11:00 AM
#68
You do have a point. I definitely think the major manufacturers want to move away from manuals on performance cars and they market them well over there in terms of being faster, etc. (same stuff Porsche does over here, though I think it's really for emissions and fuel economy). But most enthusiasts can't afford exotic metal over there so they're driving around in manual Civic type R's, Subarus, MX5s, etc. until/if they can eventually afford something more exotic.
I was back in Northern Ireland a couple of weeks back and it reminded my just how few cars had autos, and how challenging the roads were.
I was back in Northern Ireland a couple of weeks back and it reminded my just how few cars had autos, and how challenging the roads were.
My mum that's almost 70 years old have never driven an Automatic car. All Volvos and whatever over the years have been MT. She would freak out if she had to drive an automatic.
Every time a pick up a rental car in the UK it's a MT.
So my impression is that double clutch and paddles are really cool in Europe. It's kind of exotic.
And if you ask me if I would buy a MT or PDK in the 991gt3/RS the answer would be PDK.
Drove the GT4 a couple of weeks ago. The gearbox is nice and with a good feel. But with the tall second gear I would probably prefer the PDK from the 991.3
09-02-2015, 11:07 AM
#69
Rennlist Member
Very well said, Golfnut
- Porsche feels EXCTLY the same way. The GT4 and future iterations were built to be an affordable GT4 to reach a wider audience. They were a bit caught off guard when 911 people and car aficionados scooped them up early. PDK will represent about 50% of GT4 sales to US per Preuninger.
- Porsche feels EXCTLY the same way. The GT4 and future iterations were built to be an affordable GT4 to reach a wider audience. They were a bit caught off guard when 911 people and car aficionados scooped them up early. PDK will represent about 50% of GT4 sales to US per Preuninger.
Good discussion and a fun read... thanks for your continued comments Pete. Can't wait till my GT4 arrives.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
Just like jazz music and jazz aficionados... it is truly truly great thing, but the audience is aging and dying and not being replaced at a good enough rate to sustain the genre. Not to be too morbid about us here, but it is analogous...we are here and we are largely preaching to the choir. Porsche being a growth-seeking business enterprise has to realize this and it must ensure its future. And the future is a different set of buyers - younger, different life experiences, with different driving skills because of those life experiences.
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
09-02-2015, 11:11 AM
#70
Burning Brakes
Agree!
My mum that's almost 70 years old have never driven an Automatic car. All Volvos and whatever over the years have been MT. She would freak out if she had to drive an automatic.
Every time a pick up a rental car in the UK it's a MT.
So my impression is that double clutch and paddles are really cool in Europe. It's kind of exotic.
And if you ask me if I would buy a MT or PDK in the 991gt3/RS the answer would be PDK.
Drove the GT4 a couple of weeks ago. The gearbox is nice and with a good feel. But with the tall second gear I would probably prefer the PDK from the 991.3
My mum that's almost 70 years old have never driven an Automatic car. All Volvos and whatever over the years have been MT. She would freak out if she had to drive an automatic.
Every time a pick up a rental car in the UK it's a MT.
So my impression is that double clutch and paddles are really cool in Europe. It's kind of exotic.
And if you ask me if I would buy a MT or PDK in the 991gt3/RS the answer would be PDK.
Drove the GT4 a couple of weeks ago. The gearbox is nice and with a good feel. But with the tall second gear I would probably prefer the PDK from the 991.3
09-02-2015, 11:26 AM
#71
Drifting
Very well said, Golfnut
- Porsche feels EXCTLY the same way. The GT4 and future iterations were built to be an affordable GT4 to reach a wider audience. They were a bit caught off guard when 911 people and car aficionados scooped them up early. PDK will represent about 50% of GT4 sales to US per Preuninger.
- Porsche feels EXCTLY the same way. The GT4 and future iterations were built to be an affordable GT4 to reach a wider audience. They were a bit caught off guard when 911 people and car aficionados scooped them up early. PDK will represent about 50% of GT4 sales to US per Preuninger.
09-02-2015, 12:22 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
1. I've already got my allocation for my GT4
2. My GT4 is a HUGE splurge for me so spending even more money on a car just isn't likely.
09-02-2015, 12:25 PM
#73
Burning Brakes
....
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
....
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
One element of all this that I want to throw in, is that in this very forum and on this very thread, we are a self selected population. We are old (or older) enthusiast drivers with a set of life experiences formed largely from older, stick-shift non-electronically-nannied performance cars.
....
The GT4 - being an 'affordable, entry level GT car' - was targeted at P-Car buyers whom are generally NOT here, not like us. Not us. We are buying up these cars, but the car was launched NOT REALLY FOR US. Our rabid interest in this car has surprised and taught Porsche management something, for sure. And it seems like at least one niche branch of the line will be supported and developed with enthusiasts like us in mind.
Some of us simply prefer the challenge and additional interaction provide by a three pedal manual.
09-02-2015, 12:25 PM
#74
Burning Brakes
09-02-2015, 12:42 PM
#75
Cheaper cars in Europe are manual. More expensive cars (including Porsches) seem to sell more units as automatics than manuals there.