aggie57

Sadly Indonesia has a lousy reputation and attitude to pollution of all sorts. If you've ever been in Singapore or Malaysia while they're doing burn-off's across Borneo, with the winds carrying the smoke north west across the Malay peninsula, you'd experience 1st hand how little regard they have for the environment and other peoples wellbeing. For sure efforts need to continue to reduce the impact of all aspects of mining and resource extraction, including nickel.

Those Borneo burn-off's by the way are largely to prepare old-growth areas for palm oil plantings. You likely use Palm Oil every day in a huge range of products, Indonesia is the worlds largest producer of that as well.

ipse dixit

Let's face it, humans (meaning, me, you, and everyone else on this thread) pollute.

That's true whether you drive an EV, ICE, hybrid, or all three. Heck, you'll even pollute even if you just walk everywhere.

At this point, it's just a matter of degree -- i.e., not "if" but "how much" -- humans pollute.

Do EVs make more of a difference in the long run than a comparable ICE car?

Who knows, but in the long run the biggest difference maker is going to be humans.

And as humans, we can either choose to make that "long run" longer, or shorter.

But I am willing to bet that in the long run EVs will make a marginally more significant difference than just driving ICE cars.

Unless of course one thinks this whole EV thing is a conspiracy amongst all the major countries in the world and all of those countries' leaders.

And if you believe that, there's really nothing more to discuss.

There's no point in further discussions. In anything, really.

jmrichards

I continue to believe in Toyota's "all of the above" approach. This also includes new/innovative technologies, and ways to make some current technologies cost effective (e.g. hydrogen). The problem I have is with the Al Gores and John Kerrys of the world, whose carbon footprint is a large as some small countries. Despite this, they feel the need to tell the whole world to do as they say not as they do. In the long run the market will sort out the best/most effective technologies without heavy handed political interference.

aggie57

So true. Isn't the world one giant conspiracy? Or flat, or something.....

ipse dixit

One flat conspiracy.

ipse dixit

I don't disagree with you about the Environmental Karens of the world.

But that said, why let personal animosity get in the way of actual facts?

jmrichards

The actual facts are that China and India continue to build hundreds of unscrubbed coal plants each year, generating enormous amounts of additional pollution. Stop that and you will stop most of the increase in global emissions. EV's just don't make that much of a difference. For example, an economist at the American Enterprise Institute recently calculated that California's proposed move to ban diesel locomotives in the state would reduce global temperatures in 2100 by 0.000063 degrees Celsius. Additionally, zero emission locomotives would require batteries 6 to 10 times bigger than those that are available today. They also don't work well in cold temperatures like we experience in the Sierra Nevada mountains every winter. The likely result would be more freight moving by trucks, as if we don't have a congestion problem already. This is a perfect example of the unintended consequences of virtue signaling politicians who don't have a clue how the real world works.

M3Inline6

+1

aggie57

"For example, an economist at the American Enterprise Institute recently calculated that California's proposed move to ban diesel locomotives in the state would reduce global temperatures in 2100 by 0.000063 degrees Celsius."

The bigger issue for the railroads by 2100 is likely to be actually getting diesel fuel, at least enough of it operate a railroad.

Ikone

This thread can officially be shut down. lol.

RingoDingo

I'm a big fan of your posts, and I agree with 99% of what you're saying... so good for you for standing up to the crowd. EVs are better technology - they just are - the infrastructure is not there yet and that is the problem. Plus it's a very, very small f*** you to the Saudis every time I get in my beautiful Taycan. I hate having to cowtow to those who brought us 9/11 and bonesaws just so our gas prices stay stable. If you're a true American, you want energy independence from the entire middle east.

jmrichards

Energy independence has already been achieved thanks to entrepreneurs who developed ways to extract much higher levels of oil and gas from existing fields. Look up George Mitchell, and you will find out why we are now a net exporter of energy. So sad when you bought a Taycan that lost 50% of its value in the first year that you are so poorly informed.

RingoDingo

So weird... it's like we still have to cowtow to the Saudis and OPEC in order to keep oil prices within a range acceptable to all the ICE owners who winge and moan any time the price of a gallon goes above a dollar certain amount. For all of your "energy independence" American politics and the energy economy has a funny way of countering it.

Also, fracking is destroying the lands where it occurs, but sure. Oil is a stupid way to make a car move forward when electricity is available to the same job.

And I make enough money not to give a **** whether my Taycan depreciates. It's the best car that I've ever owned and a technological marvel. If you actually view a 911 as an investment, God help you - cars are meant to be driven.

jmrichards

Wow. Rich and stupid. Most people actually want to do more than virtue signal with their EVs. Using slave labor to mine minerals that make your insignificant contribution to reducing emissions must make you feel better. I drive my 911 every day and am looking for a good Ferrari F12 for weekend drives. Look into the unbelievable environmental destruction the Chinese are doing to provide you with your precious EV materials. Rich and stupid is no way to go through life.

aggie57

Have you ever stopped to look at the damage oil has done to the environment over the years? Exxon Valdez anyone? Torrey Canyon? Closer to home, Deepwater Horizon? Look, we know current mining practices aren’t great and need work but to pretend the oil industry is somehow immune from that - over more than a century - is just plain silly.