Muf

Hey, it seems that nobody here knows the Laborghini LM002!
I do not say that it is a nice car but it is an evidence that even companies like Lamborghini make off-road cars.

Blue S2

WTF?????? "Lots of sheep buying Boxster and Cayenne????" Dude get real. I dont want to flame, but you obviously have never spent enough time around either! First, i have seen people aggressively put a Cayenne through slaloms, turns, skid pads, etc... With my own eyes I saw it outdo most Porsches at the event. And the driver was new. Its scary, but its Porsche 100%.

Second, the Boxster is also the Porsche that has to be held back again because its at the breaking point to be WAY better than the 911. Just as the 914 before it, you can drop a 911 engine right into it. Porsche wouldnt have set that up if they didnt care about the car being true. The car moves, and it does so like every Porsche before it. The 911 is just the line they have decided to keep strong due to public demand. The 928 was going to replace it at one point. (the 928, and 951 where WAY better cars)

Porsche has always been pretty available to anyone who wants to own one. Thats the beauty of it. They make the best, but they make it for people.

I wont get into the VW/Audi thing, but some people need to WAKE UP!!!! Ferdinand Porsche designed VW FIRST!!!!! Its his cars!!!!! His sister took over running VW when Porsche got too busy. She married into the Piechs which own Audi. Its all one family now. All Porsches have shared DOZENS of VW/Audi parts since day one. Nothing has changed! Even if they dont say it, sooo much of the cars are shared! From the GT2 to the Cayenne.

The company has stayed true to their original purpose. Be number 1, build passionate sport cars. This holds true even with the Cayenne.


EDIT: HAHA, i know the LM002 - Its a MONSTER. Its insane. The design was all brute force! Ferrari has also built an SUV, it was called something else though... i cant remember what they branded it as...

Matt H

And what did those models do for Porsche???

Kept the company in business vs. going bankrupt.

Are they still made?

No and neither is the 1967 Aston Martin DB7, WTF difference does that make?

Hmmm, wonder why?

Because this is 2004 not 1990. Check the price of a Boxster in terms of 1988 dollars guess what you get, the same thing as a 944 and a Boxster S? You guessed it, within dollars of the 951 sticker price.

Because they just about put them six feet under! Don't get me wrong I love the 944 turbos (I've had two) & 928, but I don't think Porsche will every say they were a good business decision.

They damn sure better say they were a good business decision, without them the company would be owned by someone else (probably VW).

Here is a nice breakdown for you (numbers might be off a few here and there as they come from various sources.

Number of US cars sold (imported)
911 924
1978| 5015| 11638

1979| 3978| 10586

1980| 2980| 7140

1981| 2980| 3684

1982| 4883| 3653

1983| 5770| 5506 (944) 911# includes Cabs for the first time

1984| no #| 16618

1985| no #| 6167

1986| no #| 18414

1987| no#| 11794

It goes on and on. Anyone who thinks the 914/924/944 series cars were useless to the company is a damn fool. Not a purist, just an idiot. Would love someone to fill in sales numbers from 1984 - 1991, I will then fill in the rest of the 944 series data.
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meanmaroon951

you show em' lol , the cayenne is a porsche. just as good as your little 911's lol its great ppl start these things b/c so much info comes out in the thread

Adrian

I recommend that you all purchase a copy of Karl Ludvigsens "Excellence was Expected" www.bentleypublishers.com to read the truth behind the problems at Porsche from 1986 to 1995. Some people may well find things they did not want to read but knowing the truth is better than what I see written in some of these posts.
For the record, Louise Piech (nee Porsche) never ran VW. Louise had the forethought to set up the Porsche distribution network in Austria as her own business. When she married Anton Piech, VW and Audi products were added to her distributorship. Her family still own, control and run the entire distribution network in Austria today. Totally separate of family share holdings in other companies.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C

Matt H

Adrian - to whom are you responding? Did I miss some posts?
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prophesized

i dont think he is saying that the cayenee and boxster dont perform. i believe he means their lower prices make them available to more people.

Adrian

Dear Matt,
I am responding to the 911 versus 944 argument. Which one saved the company? Stuff. It was far more complicated that this and to know the whole history from a respected historian would end these kind of defensive arguments forever.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Matt H

Are you not a respected historian? I thought you wrote some 911 books.
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Wet1

Wow, I haven't looked at this thread for a while... looks like I missed a lot.

I don't mind being called an idiot or anything else, everyone has their own opinion. I find it humorous how people become so sensitive to less than positive remarks about the Porsche model they own. While I've owned and/or driven most of the vehicles Porsche has produced and I've closely followed the company for decades, many models have been great others only so-so. Despite how great they may have been (or how many cars they sold), this does not necessarily make them an attribute to the company. Hell, if Porsche had sold 20,000 Porsche "Yugo's" per year during the 80's, would you say this was also healthy? Ever wonder why Toyota doesn't market the Corolla or Echo under the Lexus name??? BECAUSE IT WOULD DILUTE THE LEXUS NAME!!! What if Porsche sold 20,000 "Yugo's" per year, yet sold them at or below their marginal cost? Hello McFly!!!

It may be time to go back to school.


Regards,
The Fool/idiot

Matt H

Wet1 - we in the water cooled arena are a sensitive type. We prefer the engine in the front, the handling neutral, and whale tails on Civics :>) J/K

FWIW- many of the 914/924/944 series owners are now the owners of the 993/996s. I would say in that manner that it does not dilute a marque but rather, makes it accessible to a wider audience. If you are arguing against accessability, I can see that (I dont agree but I can see where you are coming from). If you are arguing that without the other models Porsche would have survived the 80s I think we are going to have to disagree.

My apologies for the idiot comments, apparently I was having a rough day that day.
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Adrian

Dear Matt,
Yes I write 911 books. Yes I know the history of Porsche very well. However because I own a 911 if I say anything that does not support a 944 owner they get all defensive. I prefer to give you another reference source which should be seen as independent.
I can tell you that the 914/924/944 series were the least profitable for Porsche because they could not directly control their production costs. Audi were actually building them. By the time Porsche managed to move the 944 production back to Zuffenhausen it was too late, the 944 production costs had soared out of control.
In calandar year 1990 Porsche delivered 20,000 964s. In calendar year 1991 they delivered 18,700 964s, all of which made Porsche a huge profit. Was not to last though.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Matt H

Adrian, what are the titles or links to your books for sale? I would love to add to my collection.

Lastly, in auto sales it is not always about profit. There is a huge issue with perception. Would you buy a car from a company that sold 3K cars per year? Maybe, if they were hand built, said Ferrari or McLaren or a handful of others. If Porsche had maintained sales in the 3K unit range it would have been very hard for them to remain in business. Though I agree that none of the mentioned lines were hugely profitable, this was through poor business management, in my mind.
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Joe Anstett

Actually, prestigious companies sometimes do these kinds of things.

Cases in point:

- The Acura RSX is actually a Honda Civic
- Infiniti used to have a low end car, the G20, which was a Sentra under the sheetmetal.
- BMW is marketing the 1 series in Europe and possibly in the US, as a competitor to Japanese econo boxes.
- BMW's Mini; Mercedes' Smart car.

The key is to do the marketing so that a rebadged econo-car can pull of the premium image. Sometimes it's done right (Acura RSX); sometimes it's done wrong (Cadillac Cimmaron).

Adrian

Dear Matt,
My book title is at the end of my post. It is available from www.bentleyspublishers.com or Amazon, Barnes and Noble etc.
My next one on the 911SC is half way through the final edit. Foreword by Vern Schuppan. Due out in September.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4