Dana R

It's really too early to compare the frequency of ICE fires with EV fires, but one thing we know now is that normal fire extinguishers don't work on EVs. 44 years ago I put out an engine fire caused by a bad fuel line to the carburetor in my Fiat X1/9. I had pulled it into the driveway of my wife's parents to show it off, and they noticed the flames coming out the engine cover. Fortunately a hose was right there, and the fire went out in seconds. Try that on a Tesla. Crappy Italian fuel line...

Underblu

Yeah I’ll remember that when I make a living at the track.

In the meantime enjoy carving Canyons with digital torque, a 2 speed automatic as the lovely sounds of a sewing machine fills your ears. If the ICE represented unbridled freedom and mobility, EVs represent the inverse of that.

Archimedes

As long as you’re comfortable looking at my taillights.

Funny that the two fastest Ring laps were turned by a hybrid and an EV. Also love how ICE zealots use the word ‘soul’ as a synonym for ‘slow’.

Truth be told, I would still own my GT4 as well if I had a place to park it, because it was awesome to drive, but I’d still know it was a dinosaur compared to what’s coming.

BoxKing

Electric Gokarts are so much fun to drive until the 17 year old ***** slows you down with a remote... those of you who don't think that day will come on EV cars too, are out of their minds. Lets see who's crying about not having an ICE car in the stable then. Also, where will all the loss in gas tax revenue be supplemented from? Rumors have been said that EV drivers will pay a tax on a per mile basis; which means you're being tracked in real time (if that day comes).

Petrol and War support some of the wealthiest of people, and economies on the planet, and neither will go away, even though there are those that wish for it.
EV has a place, but for the time being, not when when it comes to my sports car(s). A daily driver... sure.

enduro

This can just as easily happen for ICE. Some euro legislative body is already pushing annoying speed calming effects, like having the throttle push back on you if you're speeding. I do make it a point to do all of my karting at locations which are staffed by enthusiasts and ringers.

Agreed, for current EVs. Aside from the huge infrastructure issues and political mettling, the biggest issues I see with EVs are weight (energy density and power density) and the fact that every single one of them are currently marketed to ppl who want to drive a video game. The latter offers a lot of low hanging fruit if a manufacturer actually steps up, the former is a difficult problem to resolve.

Post up some of your track vids in the Taycan.

enduro

My dismal prediction is that if an ICE Cayman persists it'll be some 1.8 liter turbo 4 snoozer.

patdonahue

As an addendum to this discussion, I recently viewed the Porsche Video on their annual press conference (translated in real time not in the original German). Left me scratching my head, lots of word salad like: "IT compatibility, return to stockholders, commitment to the Paris Climate Target, Autonomous Driving Ability, etc.) All well and good for the stockholders ears but very little about what the enthusiast look for from Porsche. Anytime a see a board member whose title includes the terms "sustainability & politics" alarm bells start going off in my head.
I hope Porsche does not go "Boeing" on us and start moving away from the reasons people love to drive the cars. I know the IPO was a big deal for them but response to the enthusiast and not the stockholders made Porsche great. Engineering not accounting made Porsche great.
If you are a proponent of EV then this is right in your wheelhouse:

greatfox315

For sure they are being forced, but I disagree that it is for political reasons. There are real benefits to switching to EVs that have nothing to do with politics. Energy independence, cleaner air (remember when COVID first hit and you could see the stars in the city for a couple months?), quieter roads, lower cost of ownership, convenience of charging at home, and never visiting a gas station ever again (the list goes on).

After driving an EV for the first time, I was absolutely blown away and amazed at how much better it is than ICE at being a mode of transportation. There simply is no comparison. I will never purchase another ICE vehicle as a mode of transportation ever again in my life, full stop.

Now, the case could be made that fun cars COULD be less engaging/emotional to drive as a result of the weight penalty and lack of (real) sound. For that reason, I can see there being a market for ICE toy cars (like my GT4 RS) using e-fuels in the future.

That said, I am very much looking forward to what Porsche does with the new Boxster/Cayman EV. If anyone can shift the paradigm of EVs in the direction of fun and invigorating, it’s Porsche (and maybe Lotus)

MaddMike

Ford just applied for a patent to be able to disable the AC and nav and eventually the whole car if you fall behind on your payments--this is for all their vehicles. Thinking that remote monitoring/control can only be done with EVs is naive. Sure, if you you have an older, analog car that will be impossible to do but most people carry a tracking device in their pockets 24/7 anyway.

MaddMike

You mean like oil? I would love to see the oil and gas subsidies go away and let the free market decide.

wizee

When it comes to freedom and mobility, generating electricity on your own is much easier than producing gasoline. It’s much easier to be energy independent as an individual (or as a nation) with say your own solar panels or windmills to power your own EV, than to have the infrastructure to produce your own fuel. I also find the ability to idle your car and enjoy its comforts without the pollution of a running engine appealing.

I totally get how the noises produced by reciprocating pistons and rhyming pulsating airflow from an internal combustion engine are fun, and moving gears yourself can be more engaging than having a computer and servos shift for you, or having a single speed gearbox. But that doesn’t mean EVs can’t be fun. The same arguments can be may to say that ICE cars are boring and soulless appliances, and horses are way more engaging.

Instant throttle response, always being in the right gear, and a low centre of gravity that enables a supple suspension with minimal body roll are all amazing. So is powertrain silence and smoothness that puts old V12 luxury sedans to shame. And for those that want noise, you can make an EV produce any noise you want. The noises sports cars produce are already very highly engineered with special resonators and mufflers and pipe designs; most other sporty car brands also play engine noises through the speakers. Outside of sports cars, ICEs are engineered to be as quiet and smooth as possible for their price point.

Yes, there is room for improvement when it comes to the energy density of batteries. Current EVs are usually around 20% heavier than their current ICE equivalents, and we don’t yet have battery tech for a sports car to last an entire track day without charging between sessions. However, battery tech is improving - density, charging speed, ability to sustain high load, and durability/longevity are all getting better with time, albeit gradually. In another decade or two, I expect these complaints about weight and charging speed compared to ICE cars to become moot points. We already have the tech for 15 minute battery charging, and we’ll probably have 5 or 10 minute charging in another couple decades. When you can get 4 hours of driving range in a 10 minute stop, and you’ll need to eat and use the washroom in that time anyway, making charging any quicker would be of minimal value. Most of the time, your car will always be fully charged whenever you leave home, and you’d never need to visit gas stations. For weight, a 30-50% improvement in battery density (compared to the current state of the art) coupled with improved structural and mechanical designs for battery structure and cooling and motors and gearboxes (all of which is in progress) would bring us to weight parity with ICE cars.

While I’ll probably hold onto my ICE Spyder as the last of its breed, I’m eagerly looking forward to electric sports cars and their numerous advantages.

981KMAN

Here is an interesting read from Reuters News on EV's Disposable EVs?

I've been reading the debate on the Pros and Cons of EVs ..... versus ICEs.

I think it's just way too soon to make any decision one way or the other as the battery EV Tech is still too young and there is too much "Dirty Laundry" about EVs that has yet to come into the main stream (Reuters article above touches some...). Right now many governments are pushing the "Pendulum" significantly towards the EV side, yet it will probably swing back to the middle in a few years for a variety of reasons, some already mentioned, some not.

Another good read is the new US Legislation introduced in the House of Representatives: HR 1435 Preserving Choice in Vehicle Purchase Act

Zhao

I agree. I have no idea why we are subsidizing companies to take stuff out of our ground, make money off it, and leave a mess for tax payers to clean up.

However pathetic your country is for that, I bet you mine is even more of a cuck to companies extracting our resources. We have agreements that cleanup is on the company that are getting ignored and the government is just footing the bill on the backs of taxpayers here.

BlackGT3

I agree that there are real benefits for majority of people especially using EVs as primary mode of transportation. I find the governments incentivizing heavily to speed up EV transitions and mandating new ICE sales to cease in the near future absurd. Just like mechanical vs. smart watches, ICE sports cars are appealing to niche market (us Porschephiles) and would still bring enough economic value to coexist along EVs. Li-ion battery recycling remained questionable. Alas, most of us here simply don’t to drive enough to exceed the lifetime carbon footprint of an EV.

As someone who grew up smelling gasoline and diesel, I highly doubt incoming 718 EV will do it for me. Hard to explain it is probably like how I wondered why anyone would still listen to vinyl recordings. The emotions can never be replicated….

slivel

Some really fine points have been made by contributors to this thread but I didn't feel very well informed. Being an old retired person with time on my hands, I did some internet research from some reputable sites. This is how the current figures stack up, and yes, I had to make some assumptions but I don't think they seriously degrade the study. Also, I'm sure the experts on the internet will loudly correct me.
Enjoy:Americans drive an average of 11 billion miles per day, consuming 400 million gallons of gasoline.

1. There are approximately 290 million cars in the US, with 1.5 million being pure plug-in EV’s.

2. Americans take 1.1 billion trips each day which is equal to about four trips per person.

3. US daily travel averages about 40 miles per person.

4. Current EV power consumption ranges between 240-870 Watts/mile, or 2.9-4.0 miles/KWh.

5. Based on the average 40 miles/day/person, EV’s consume between 17,400-24,000 MWh/day (assumes that all EV’s are one-person families). Realistically, the EV consumption should be higher to account for family member’s travel needs.

6. If we decrease the 11 billion total daily miles for the EV portion, (1.5 million EV times 40 miles/day), you get approximately 10.9 billion ICE miles/day.

7. If we now replace the Ice miles with EV miles, we will need to generate daily between 2,739,125 – 3,778,104 MWh to charge the batteries at the current EV consumption averages.

8. The most current US national electricity generation figure are from Jan 2023 and show 347,437,000 MWh for the month. This equates to about 11,207,645 MWh/day.

9. National average daily production of 11 million MWh may be able to handle a full fleet of EV’s consuming 2.7 to 3.7 million MWh but that is almost 30 % of current use. Is there enough excess capacity?

Current electricity generation by source:

Natural gas – 38.3%

Coal – 21.8%

Nuclear – 18.9%

Renewables – 13.8%

Hydro – 6.3%

Data Sources:

· Electricity - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

· National Household Travel Survey Daily Travel Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics (bts.gov)

· Electric Car kWh Per Mile List [277 kWh/Mile Listed] (ecocostsavings.com)
The major concern that I have with the change to EV's is that most discussions seem to be focused on the end product and not the proper steps to get there such as charging infrastructure and electric power generation. Increases in efficiency can help to compensate for the increased demand but population growth and the rapid progression to an electrified transportation system do not occupy the place in national priorities that is needed. I hope I'm wrong about this. One poster stated that generating your own power via solar is what is needed. In cities where only the minority of residents live in single family homes and the majority are in multi-family apartments and high-rises, generating your own power is not an option.