Long Live ICE
#47
A car is the sum of all its components. If you want to talk safety you need to factor everything in. Laser focusing on one item and not factoring in how everything around it has changed has little value for a position. You're laser focusing on # of fires too, disconting how and when they happen. A fire that is noticed is rarely a problem. A fire that burns without being noticed until it is massive is usually a huge problem. Why don't you see that?
There are also 2 studies that suggest the current data insurance companies are using is misleading. They're pulling data from total number of fires for each type of vehicle and getting a ratio by the number of vehicles and saying EV's are safer from that. But 2 university studies say the risk of fire is much higher than suggested by that data. One study says when you look at fires per starts, it actually is significantly more in favour of EV's igniting.
I'd say that means comparing a fleet that contains a ton of poorly maintained 20 year old ICE cars in it to a fleet of brand new EVs driven by rich people who maintain them is garbage info, and it also brings up something I didn't think of before, in taht EV's are largely people's 'other' car, and are not a primary car for a lot of people, and those that use it as a primary car are gnerally people who live in a large metro area that do not have the same driving habits as someone living in a less populated area, and thus EV's have less starts per year and less KM driven than your average ICE cars. Basically if you drive a newer car less and maintain it better of course it's going to show data that it has less fires. THe primary cause of ICE car fires is poor maintenance. The primary cause of EV fires is battery failure.
There are also 2 studies that suggest the current data insurance companies are using is misleading. They're pulling data from total number of fires for each type of vehicle and getting a ratio by the number of vehicles and saying EV's are safer from that. But 2 university studies say the risk of fire is much higher than suggested by that data. One study says when you look at fires per starts, it actually is significantly more in favour of EV's igniting.
I'd say that means comparing a fleet that contains a ton of poorly maintained 20 year old ICE cars in it to a fleet of brand new EVs driven by rich people who maintain them is garbage info, and it also brings up something I didn't think of before, in taht EV's are largely people's 'other' car, and are not a primary car for a lot of people, and those that use it as a primary car are gnerally people who live in a large metro area that do not have the same driving habits as someone living in a less populated area, and thus EV's have less starts per year and less KM driven than your average ICE cars. Basically if you drive a newer car less and maintain it better of course it's going to show data that it has less fires. THe primary cause of ICE car fires is poor maintenance. The primary cause of EV fires is battery failure.
#48
Pro
Always amazed at the EV proponents get so upset when data is produced that doesn't agree with their point of view. Even more amazed is how intolerant they are because there are people on this forum who do not want an electric vehicle and are deemed being left behind in the face of progress, There are things we know about EVs. There are also things we know we don't know about EVs. AND: The big one there are things we do not know that we do not know about EVs.
If Porsche was so certain about the EV future why did they build a Syn-Fuel plant in South America? Are they hedging their bets with a plan B? ICE engines are going to be around a long time before the infrastructure technology catches up and if some technology breakthrough happens in a few years it could even make EVs redundant.
I really get the impression from some on this forum with respect to EVs that "it is my way or the highway" No pun intended! ;-)
If Porsche was so certain about the EV future why did they build a Syn-Fuel plant in South America? Are they hedging their bets with a plan B? ICE engines are going to be around a long time before the infrastructure technology catches up and if some technology breakthrough happens in a few years it could even make EVs redundant.
I really get the impression from some on this forum with respect to EVs that "it is my way or the highway" No pun intended! ;-)
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Underblu (03-25-2023)
#49
Racer
For sports cars though? Sound is a huge part of it and EVs are lacking in it. Heck go watch formula 1 and formula e and decide for yourself which one you like better.
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mywave (03-23-2023)
#50
Rennlist Member
EV tech is not inherently bad, it all depends how we implement it. Its pretty clear our addiction to fossil fuels is an issue, but just ramming through a transition to full electric is not really a workable solution in the short term. Hybrids are the sweet spot for the foreseeable future, at which point we may have developed something better or more efficient than full electric. Take the new X5 for example, it can go 40 miles on electric range. For your average suburban person taking their kids to school, driving to whole foods, the gym etc. this is enough range to not need ICE. Just charge it at home, no fast charger required. Then when you go somewhere farther you can activate the engine. Massively reduces overall emissions, without any of the major downsides of full electric. This will allow manufacturers to keep building the fun stuff, so I'm all for it.
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UncleDude (03-22-2023)
#51
Racer
EV tech is not inherently bad, it all depends how we implement it. Its pretty clear our addiction to fossil fuels is an issue, but just ramming through a transition to full electric is not really a workable solution in the short term. Hybrids are the sweet spot for the foreseeable future, at which point we may have developed something better or more efficient than full electric. Take the new X5 for example, it can go 40 miles on electric range. For your average suburban person taking their kids to school, driving to whole foods, the gym etc. this is enough range to not need ICE. Just charge it at home, no fast charger required. Then when you go somewhere farther you can activate the engine. Massively reduces overall emissions, without any of the major downsides of full electric. This will allow manufacturers to keep building the fun stuff, so I'm all for it.
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#52
Rennlist Member
I can live with this solution. My main worry is the hurried way in governments have mandated this transition to EVs without the market actually demanding it. Nobody seems to care about the potential risks to switch to all electric from an energy point of view. We don't have our energy problem worked out yet but want to switch to all electric vehicles. What could go wrong right? These governments that are forcing this on us are the same entities that were responsible for the brilliantly executed covid lockdowns, the expertly controlled money printing etc etc (sarcasm intended). Let's just trust them to make all the right decisions.
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kwikit356 (03-22-2023)
#53
Instructor
I don’t have an issue with evs. Yes, regulations and tax incentives are helping capture market share, but to me that steady increase is primarily because, individual motives aside, more and more people *want* them. There’s lots to like, but there’s also much work to do (infrastructure being the biggest, imo). I’m always excited about choice (what if hydrogen or alternative fuels really break through?). I like where the market is heading… there will def be growing pains but damn these are exciting times!
Last edited by dichael; 03-22-2023 at 09:02 PM.
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greatfox315 (03-22-2023)
#54
Drifting
Always amazed at the EV proponents get so upset when data is produced that doesn't agree with their point of view. Even more amazed is how intolerant they are because there are people on this forum who do not want an electric vehicle and are deemed being left behind in the face of progress, There are things we know about EVs. There are also things we know we don't know about EVs. AND: The big one there are things we do not know that we do not know about EVs.
If Porsche was so certain about the EV future why did they build a Syn-Fuel plant in South America? Are they hedging their bets with a plan B? ICE engines are going to be around a long time before the infrastructure technology catches up and if some technology breakthrough happens in a few years it could even make EVs redundant.
I really get the impression from some on this forum with respect to EVs that "it is my way or the highway" No pun intended! ;-)
If Porsche was so certain about the EV future why did they build a Syn-Fuel plant in South America? Are they hedging their bets with a plan B? ICE engines are going to be around a long time before the infrastructure technology catches up and if some technology breakthrough happens in a few years it could even make EVs redundant.
I really get the impression from some on this forum with respect to EVs that "it is my way or the highway" No pun intended! ;-)
I'm guessing greatwhatever has learned absolutely nothing about history. His most favorite thing right now could easily be replaced as you said by something even better or found out to be not as great as he thought (which has happened repeatedly throughout history), and then where would he be? He's probably the guy that has betamax tapes tucked away somewhere at home with him yelling at a cloud about how laser disks are the future and anyone using VHS is a moron who doesn't understand progress.
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Underblu (03-25-2023)
#55
Yeah you either agree with them or you are labelled an idiot. I am a mid 30yr old guy and love my ICE cars. I will probably buy an EV for a DD but would like the battery technology to catch up before I take the plunge.
For sports cars though? Sound is a huge part of it and EVs are lacking in it. Heck go watch formula 1 and formula e and decide for yourself which one you like better.
For sports cars though? Sound is a huge part of it and EVs are lacking in it. Heck go watch formula 1 and formula e and decide for yourself which one you like better.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/opinio...ally-speaking/
This study specifically calls out that NON-CRASH EV fires are no more likely to happen than NON-CRASH ICE vehicle fires (such as the highly publicized garage fires of Tesla and GM EVs)
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...crash-fire.pdf
And for what it’s worth, I’m a massive gearhead and love ICE cars. They’ve had their day, long live the greats, but it’s time to stop being so afraid of what we are unfamiliar with.
Last edited by greatfox315; 03-23-2023 at 12:18 AM.
#56
I don’t have an issue with evs. Yes, regulations and tax incentives are helping capture market share, but to me that steady increase is primarily because, individual motives aside, more and more people *want* them. There’s lots to like, but there’s also much work to do (infrastructure being the biggest, imo). I’m always excited about choice (what if hydrogen or alternative fuels really break through?). I like where the market is heading… there will def be growing pains but damn these are exciting times!
#57
Drifting
Nobody labeled anyone an idiot (certainly not me). That said, many of those in this thread choose to ignore the facts when looking at EVs vs ICE vehicles. They are not unsafe and are far less likely to catch fire than ICE vehicles are.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/opinio...ally-speaking/
This study specifically calls out that NON-CRASH EV fires are no more likely to happen than NON-CRASH ICE vehicle fires (such as the highly publicized garage fires of Tesla and GM EVs)
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...crash-fire.pdf
And for what it’s worth, I’m a massive gearhead and love ICE cars. They’ve had their day, long live the greats, but it’s time to stop being so afraid of what we are unfamiliar with.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/opinio...ally-speaking/
This study specifically calls out that NON-CRASH EV fires are no more likely to happen than NON-CRASH ICE vehicle fires (such as the highly publicized garage fires of Tesla and GM EVs)
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...crash-fire.pdf
And for what it’s worth, I’m a massive gearhead and love ICE cars. They’ve had their day, long live the greats, but it’s time to stop being so afraid of what we are unfamiliar with.
From your link: In 2020, less than half a percent of registered vehicles in the U.S. were powered exclusively by batteries. However, the numbers of electric vehicles are increasing dramatically.
- 44 people have died in telsa fires. Most of these are in the US.
- Tesla's market share is about 2/3rds of the ev fleet.
- About 500 (it was actually more like 300 a year prior to 2016 too and less than 300 prior to 2010) people die in vehicle fires every year in the US (https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/N...hiclefires.pdf).
- The stats on car fires also say fires exponentially increase in cars the older they get.
- Most of Tesla's production has been in the last few years so the average age of a EV on the road is very new.
(all this data can be easily verified because I just did it myself to double check)
Telsa's share of deaths due to fire should be at 2 deaths a year right now but it's over double that, even with giving telsa an unfair advantage in having almost all their vehicles brand new being compared against a much much older ICE car fleet. You can argue that EV's light on fire less per car, but the stats say you are more likely to die in a car fire if you own a EV. To me, I'd say that data says they're less safe because I'd view deaths as a more important measure than just raw fires. Do you have a comment on that?
I also think it's not really debatable that EV fires will become far more frequent per unit as the average age of EV's increases. Deaths per car is almost guaranteed to increase in EV's given that. Do you have a comment on that?
Last edited by Zhao; 03-23-2023 at 12:51 AM.
#58
Track Day
EVs are being forced upon us for political reasons period. If they are so great ICE will naturally phase out from the market without government mandate. Most data on the internet suggesting EVs are the future is plain garbage. Believe what you want to believe right? Try explaining how Covid19 even started.
Praise hideous EVs all you want. Keep ‘em Chevron94 coming Im taking GT3 to the grave with me.
Praise hideous EVs all you want. Keep ‘em Chevron94 coming Im taking GT3 to the grave with me.
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#59
#60
Rennlist Member
Why isn’t anyone upset about the long wait on Hoverboards?
Its been since 1989, and we still haven’t seen these hit the shelves, although you can own the sneakers for roughly $35,000!!!