Jose Head

I'm doing a build for new Cayenne Turbo E-Hybrid. Just trying to get input on the value of the ceramic brakes option. Is it a worthwhile option? Assuming average driving style (mix of city & hiway), how long do pads last vs standard brakes?

daveo4porsche

Ceramic Brakes have the following superpowers:

• thermal endurance - no brake fade - although outside of track use it's hard to imagine _ANY_ non-track scenario where that will matter
• less brake dust - if you're OCD about your wheels and dust and cleaning them - PCCB's are for you
• lower weight - and since brake are a rotational mass element this has great effect on vehicle dynamics - although on a 5000+ lbs vehicle one could argue it may not matter
• they look "better" - but I'm not sure if this is objectively true or a conditioned response from Porsche (and the auto-industry at large) marketing them this way
• no rust on the rotor in winter areas with salts on the road and such

Pad wear is no more/less than steel brakes - and very dependent on driving style and brake usage - you should get equivalent miles driven for PCCB's pads and roughly the same for steel rotors…

PCCB's have the following downsides:

• limited choices for pad replacement materials
• _IF_ you have to replace the rotors they are wicked expensive - truly spectacularly expensive - no joke - like could be a $30k brake job if you have to do all four rotors
  • for non-track use it's very plausible that rotors are "lifetime" because PCCB's only "wear" if you get them super super hot - and it's hard to imagine non-Track scenarios where this will happen
  • but _IF_ you have to replace rotors you can buy 4 rotors _OR_ an entire Honda Accord just in parts cost
• some people don't like the modulation or pedal feel of PCCB's and the pad material vs. the range of options for steel brakes

PCCB's are the best brakes money can buy for a mass-produced automobile - no question - but they are expensive to replace (if necessary) - and it's unclear if there are any actual advantages outside of endurance/high-demand applications.

stopping distance is largely governed by tire-grip levels and road conditions - and there is no statistically significant advantage in terms of expected stopping distance for PCCB's vs. Steel Brakes in non-brake-fade conditions and equivilent tires - tire grip and ABS governs your maximum deceleration (unless your brakes "suck" or are in "fade") - so for the same tires and same road surface stoping distance is the same for steel and PCCB's…

They are a great choice - but all Porsche brakes are excellent and all brakes for all vehicle's pass the following "tourture" test from Porsche as part of vehicle development…see the relevant passage from Porsche regarding the testing they do for _ALL_ brake systems on _ALL_ Porsche vehicle's…

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...n-huge-brakes/

what is interesting about the quote above is this test applies to _ALL_ vehicles and _ALL_ Porsche brakes - so their steel brakes pass the same test…so unless you're coming to full stop from 80% of top speed 25 times in a row with no pause between "trials" - you should be fine with normal Steel Brakes.

I love my PCCB's - but I can speak from experience that their most significant benefit is their outstanding fade-resistance - and I can also speak from experience that brake fade is _NOT_ an issue for virtually any Porsche brake system off-track, but I can get Porsche's steel brakes on my GT3 to fade after about 25 minutes on track at Laguna Seca - but that sort of usage is hard to imagine in any street driving scenarios.

this topic has been covered a lot - there is no definitive "conclusion" - but if you're taking sides - my position:

• they can be beneficial on track car due to lighter weight and excellent thermal fade resistance
• they are super super expensive _IF_ when you need to replace rotors
• they are mostly a cosmetic choice for any street car that will not be tracked

other's disagree with my "bias" but they also lack any definitive evidence one way or the other - as do I…

it is however 100% crystal clear the absolute cheapest opportunity to get PCCB's is with a factory order - adding them later is super expensive and mostly impractical.

and I must say regardless of any meaningful advantage in normal use - there is no question they are best brakes money can buy - and they are excellent with few if any downsides other than cost - but as to if they are "better" in meaningful way for a street car - that's less clear.

my $0.02

daveo4porsche

here is a list of existing articles on this topic - there are soooooo many more in the 911 forums - but this is a good sampling…

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ul-watson.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...ifference.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...l#post17645917
https://rennlist.com/forums/992-gt3-...b-sell-me.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...s-vs-pccb.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...3-991-2-a.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/992-turb...427-pccbs.html

daveo4porsche

I consider this post pretty definitive…

https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...l#post17645553

I'm not saying to avoid getting PCCB's - they are in fact the best brakes possible - but simply go in "eyes open" about where/why they are better and know what you're spending the money "for" - and they are not better in a way that most people "assume" and Prosche marketing (and others) are more than happy to have their customers live with that incorrect assumption…few if any vendors make _ANY_ specific claims about _HOW_ PCCB's are better, but they clearly market them as the premium high-performance "option" - but leave out any details as to what high-preformance aspect they excel at…

V10EHS

this is an excellent post - 100% accurate.

I have them as standard on my Panamera Turbo S Hybrid,
To me their biggest feature is the confidence they give you use the performance of the most powerful Panamera (or in your case Cayenne variant). You’re buying the Turbo for that performance, and when enjoying it and pushing on, it feels good to know you’ve got brakes that can handle ANYTHING you throw at them on the road.

ENCT

Yes they are worth it to me especially on a Turbo E Hybrid. Both our incoming have them. Most items I specified are wants not needs.

Mr_Marty

+ They are lighter which reduces the unsprung weight of the wheel. This improves handling and wheel dynamics on bumpy surfaces.
+ Brake pads have less copper in them now due to environmental regulations. This causes brakes to be noisier. Ceramic rotors reduce noise compared to metal rotors.
+ Much less brake dust since the rotors wear far less.
+ They look good IMO, especially if you get the calipers painted black.

- Expensive
- Costly to repair
- They feel a bit different than metal brakes

retom

- are susceptible to mechanical damages
- require warming up to achieve full braking power

daveo4porsche

thanks to @Mr_Marty and @retom - love _BOTH_ the lists for a concise pros and cons list for PCCB's

PCCB PRO's. (Superpowers really!)PCCB NeutralsPCCB CON's



mafpolo

I was under the impression that with normal driving PCCB's lasted up to 100,000 miles (maybe that'd just rotors). If the pad wear is the same, I would probably skip it. My SA told me that the risk of PCCB's is if you happen to get debris of material size (small stone) caught in one of them, you have to replace the rotor and pad.

daveo4porsche

for street use rotors are effectively life time (unless damaged as your SA noted) - pad wear is "normal" based on driving style and brake usage - when the pads wear down you just swap them - I've not seen any significant difference in pad wear. in fact you swap the pads a little earlier with PCCB's - since once pads are worn down to 40% or more they have less thermal capacity and transfer more heat to the rotors - rotor life for PCCB is based on thermal "usage" - so to preserve the rotors you swap the pads "early" to avoid the brutal rotor expense of replacing them.

i386_64

my two cents here.

_ALL_ carbon ceramic brakes in mass production are produced by AGF Carbon, with Brembo's engineering. No other competitor. Complete monopoly.

They have different types of carbon ceramic offerings. Porsche Cayenne has the biggest carbon ceramic discs available in a mass production car, even bigger than Urus.

You can buy an MB, BMW, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini: they'll all have their brakes manufactured by these guys if they're carbon ceramics.

See the feeling before optioning it. Some people like it, some don't.

MaxLTV

I think they are not needed for most people on the new Hybrid. Here is why:

lower weight will not be noticeable on a very heavy new Cayenne
higher thermal endurance also is not important or even needed unless driving on the track because so much braking is done by electric regen now.
their longevity (rotors last a lifetime and pads last much longer than with iron rotors) and thus less frequent service are less important with this hybrid too, again because of aggressive regen braking - iron rotors should last a very long time too.
low/no dust benefit is also less important because so much braking is done by regen
Rusting of iron rotors from lack of use is also not an issue to the same extent as it would be in full EV because brakes are used enough to brush off the rust layer

The last two are valid benefits but rather small for this one compared to other vehicles.

Some of the drawbacks that could matter:
Replacement cost if damaged is high. The fear of damage is largely overblown - they are hard to chip, and even fairly large chips are considered not a problem according to Porsche (but will lower resale because everyone is paranoid). But it's possible.
They do take longer to dry up when wet and cold, so the first few seconds of brake application may not be as effective. It almost never is an issue.
They are bigger in diameter, potentially limiting wheel options and increasing the risk of a rock getting stuck between brake calliper and the wheel barrel and scoring the wheel, which happened to me on every car with PCCBs and even on Cayenne Turbo with PSCBs on the 20" winter wheels.

So I'd avoid PCCBs if any off-road or gravel road driving is planned and would take it or leave it in any other scenario.

daveo4porsche

updated the "summary" pro's/con's list with this excellent feedback - thanks!

Buckett76

Great inputs already, but for a Cayenne I wouldn’t bother, unless you’re tracking, a non issue and I wouldn’t want them in wet conditions or hammering in the snow. Cost you just don’t need to deal with, irons will be just fine, and mostly better for daily use. The days I’ve seen snow build up on my Cayenne when having fun in a parking lot would prevent me selecting PCCBs