PSA: '24 Cayenne hybrid fast charging speed and your home NEMA socket
08-19-2023, 04:15 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
PSA: '24 Cayenne hybrid fast charging speed and your home NEMA socket
the new '24 Cayenne hybrid has a fast onboard 11 kW charger to charge the larger hybrid battery even faster - previous generation Cayenne were limited to 3.6/7.2 kW - this translates to 16/32 amps - and Porsche's provided EVSE (the EV charger provided with the car) can provide this level of power if coupled with a NEMA 14-50 socket.
_IF_ you had a previous hybrid (porsche or otherwise) and you have a PMC+/PMCC installed in your home on a NEMA 14-50/6-50 socket - you might want ot check the brand/quality of the socket prior to using it to charge your new '24 Cayenne. Any/all NEMA 14-50/6-50 sockets + EVSE can run at a max power of 40 amps or 9.6 kW. Running the PMC+/PMCC at these capacities will cause the powersuppy cable provided by Porsche to reach it's maximum operating temperatures (90-100F + ambient) - causeing it to be quite hot - if you do NOT have an industrial grade NEMA socket (hubble) installed your less-expensive plastic socket will be subjected to thermal stress and will likely eventually "fail" due to Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures - plastic sockets don't last very long if they are repeatedly heated/cooled for hours on end on a daily/weekly cycle…
the reason I mention this is that previous Cayennes could not charge at full 9.6 kW - so your existing NEMA socket was never subjected to the same sorts of thermal loads at 3.6/7.2 kW…so even though your existing system may have worked for years prior - the new Cayenne will cause greater thermal loads…
don't believe me - great - no problem - believe Porsche - this is _THEIR_ document on the subject - https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...22530-0001.pdf - they recommend a Hubble commercial/industrial grade socket to tolerate Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures. The Taycan community has suffered with the PMC+/PMCC for years -and actual failures have occured with cheap/non-hubble sockets - Bring this up because an actual failure occurred this week - so it's top of mind - post #24 from this thread is our most recent community failure from the nominal operating temperatures of the PMC+/PMCC at a full 40 amp/9.6 kW…see thread for pic from this week with a PMC+ running at full capacity on a cheaper NEMA socket.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...-2#post-259876
Porsche official response to this is the nhtsa link provided in this posting…they feel their nominal operating temperature is just fine and now required an appropriate grade NEMA socket for the task - they are not wrong…
if you wanna run your new Cayenne at full NEMA 14-50/6-50 capacity (40 amps 9.6 kW) please make sure your NEMA socket is up to the task - the normal plastic $12-$20 leviton sockets are simply not designed for these types of loads with _ANY_ 9.6 kW EVSE - but Porsche's in particular has a high nominal operating temperature that places additional thermal stress on these components and therefore requires appropriate grade be in your garage.
if you want to charge your '24 Cayenne hybrid at it's full 11 kW capacity - you'll need a hardwired 60/48 amp EVSE - from either Porsche (the Porsche wall charger can do it) - and there are non-Porsche EVSE's that can also do 11 kW /(48 amps w/60 amp breaker) - the NEMA socket overheating/melting is _NOT_ an issue with this sort of setup - because there is _NO_ NEMA socket - it will all be hard wired by your electrician when they install the 60/48 amp EVSE - the maximum allowed capacity for _ANY_ NEMA based EVSE is 40 amps (9.6 kW) - so if you want 11 kW you _MUST_ have a hardwired unit - nicely avoid the potential high operating temperature issue noted in this post…
for an extremely detailed discussion/overview/deep-history of the PMC+/PMCC please refer to this posting…https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...cc-pwcc.13886/
the long short summary however is - if you're using a PMC+/PMCC and your plan to run it at it's full 9.6 kW capacity - please review your garage's NEMA socket and make sure it's up to the task - otherwise your new Cayenne will stress it in ways your previous model wouldn't…
don't believe me - great - don't believe me! But you can refer to Porsche's official document and see what they say - it's linked in this posting.
and if you think this is fun for the '24 Cayenne Hybrid - just picture how much fun this could be to watch as a whole new crop of Macan EV customers come to understand and love the PMC+/PMCC just like the Taycan community does…
just my $0.02
_IF_ you had a previous hybrid (porsche or otherwise) and you have a PMC+/PMCC installed in your home on a NEMA 14-50/6-50 socket - you might want ot check the brand/quality of the socket prior to using it to charge your new '24 Cayenne. Any/all NEMA 14-50/6-50 sockets + EVSE can run at a max power of 40 amps or 9.6 kW. Running the PMC+/PMCC at these capacities will cause the powersuppy cable provided by Porsche to reach it's maximum operating temperatures (90-100F + ambient) - causeing it to be quite hot - if you do NOT have an industrial grade NEMA socket (hubble) installed your less-expensive plastic socket will be subjected to thermal stress and will likely eventually "fail" due to Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures - plastic sockets don't last very long if they are repeatedly heated/cooled for hours on end on a daily/weekly cycle…
the reason I mention this is that previous Cayennes could not charge at full 9.6 kW - so your existing NEMA socket was never subjected to the same sorts of thermal loads at 3.6/7.2 kW…so even though your existing system may have worked for years prior - the new Cayenne will cause greater thermal loads…
don't believe me - great - no problem - believe Porsche - this is _THEIR_ document on the subject - https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...22530-0001.pdf - they recommend a Hubble commercial/industrial grade socket to tolerate Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures. The Taycan community has suffered with the PMC+/PMCC for years -and actual failures have occured with cheap/non-hubble sockets - Bring this up because an actual failure occurred this week - so it's top of mind - post #24 from this thread is our most recent community failure from the nominal operating temperatures of the PMC+/PMCC at a full 40 amp/9.6 kW…see thread for pic from this week with a PMC+ running at full capacity on a cheaper NEMA socket.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...-2#post-259876
Porsche official response to this is the nhtsa link provided in this posting…they feel their nominal operating temperature is just fine and now required an appropriate grade NEMA socket for the task - they are not wrong…
if you wanna run your new Cayenne at full NEMA 14-50/6-50 capacity (40 amps 9.6 kW) please make sure your NEMA socket is up to the task - the normal plastic $12-$20 leviton sockets are simply not designed for these types of loads with _ANY_ 9.6 kW EVSE - but Porsche's in particular has a high nominal operating temperature that places additional thermal stress on these components and therefore requires appropriate grade be in your garage.
if you want to charge your '24 Cayenne hybrid at it's full 11 kW capacity - you'll need a hardwired 60/48 amp EVSE - from either Porsche (the Porsche wall charger can do it) - and there are non-Porsche EVSE's that can also do 11 kW /(48 amps w/60 amp breaker) - the NEMA socket overheating/melting is _NOT_ an issue with this sort of setup - because there is _NO_ NEMA socket - it will all be hard wired by your electrician when they install the 60/48 amp EVSE - the maximum allowed capacity for _ANY_ NEMA based EVSE is 40 amps (9.6 kW) - so if you want 11 kW you _MUST_ have a hardwired unit - nicely avoid the potential high operating temperature issue noted in this post…
for an extremely detailed discussion/overview/deep-history of the PMC+/PMCC please refer to this posting…https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...cc-pwcc.13886/
the long short summary however is - if you're using a PMC+/PMCC and your plan to run it at it's full 9.6 kW capacity - please review your garage's NEMA socket and make sure it's up to the task - otherwise your new Cayenne will stress it in ways your previous model wouldn't…
don't believe me - great - don't believe me! But you can refer to Porsche's official document and see what they say - it's linked in this posting.
and if you think this is fun for the '24 Cayenne Hybrid - just picture how much fun this could be to watch as a whole new crop of Macan EV customers come to understand and love the PMC+/PMCC just like the Taycan community does…
just my $0.02
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-19-2023 at 04:21 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by daveo4porsche:
Schnave (08-19-2023),
Silververtu (08-20-2023)
08-19-2023, 06:04 AM
#2
thanks for sharing. This is very helpful to know. I’ll be a first time hybrid user when my cayenne arrives.
Makes a lot of sense!
Makes a lot of sense!
the new '24 Cayenne hybrid has a fast onboard 11 kW charger to charge the larger hybrid battery even faster - previous generation Cayenne were limited to 3.6/7.2 kW - this translates to 16/32 amps - and Porsche's provided EVSE (the EV charger provided with the car) can provide this level of power if coupled with a NEMA 14-50 socket.
_IF_ you had a previous hybrid (porsche or otherwise) and you have a PMC+/PMCC installed in your home on a NEMA 14-50/6-50 socket - you might want ot check the brand/quality of the socket prior to using it to charge your new '24 Cayenne. Any/all NEMA 14-50/6-50 sockets + EVSE can run at a max power of 40 amps or 9.6 kW. Running the PMC+/PMCC at these capacities will cause the powersuppy cable provided by Porsche to reach it's maximum operating temperatures (90-100F + ambient) - causeing it to be quite hot - if you do NOT have an industrial grade NEMA socket (hubble) installed your less-expensive plastic socket will be subjected to thermal stress and will likely eventually "fail" due to Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures - plastic sockets don't last very long if they are repeatedly heated/cooled for hours on end on a daily/weekly cycle…
the reason I mention this is that previous Cayennes could not charge at full 9.6 kW - so your existing NEMA socket was never subjected to the same sorts of thermal loads at 3.6/7.2 kW…so even though your existing system may have worked for years prior - the new Cayenne will cause greater thermal loads…
don't believe me - great - no problem - believe Porsche - this is _THEIR_ document on the subject - https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...22530-0001.pdf - they recommend a Hubble commercial/industrial grade socket to tolerate Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures. The Taycan community has suffered with the PMC+/PMCC for years -and actual failures have occured with cheap/non-hubble sockets - Bring this up because an actual failure occurred this week - so it's top of mind - post #24 from this thread is our most recent community failure from the nominal operating temperatures of the PMC+/PMCC at a full 40 amp/9.6 kW…see thread for pic from this week with a PMC+ running at full capacity on a cheaper NEMA socket.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...-2#post-259876
Porsche official response to this is the nhtsa link provided in this posting…they feel their nominal operating temperature is just fine and now required an appropriate grade NEMA socket for the task - they are not wrong…
if you wanna run your new Cayenne at full NEMA 14-50/6-50 capacity (40 amps 9.6 kW) please make sure your NEMA socket is up to the task - the normal plastic $12-$20 leviton sockets are simply not designed for these types of loads with _ANY_ 9.6 kW EVSE - but Porsche's in particular has a high nominal operating temperature that places additional thermal stress on these components and therefore requires appropriate grade be in your garage.
if you want to charge your '24 Cayenne hybrid at it's full 11 kW capacity - you'll need a hardwired 60/48 amp EVSE - from either Porsche (the Porsche wall charger can do it) - and there are non-Porsche EVSE's that can also do 11 kW /(48 amps w/60 amp breaker) - the NEMA socket overheating/melting is _NOT_ an issue with this sort of setup - because there is _NO_ NEMA socket - it will all be hard wired by your electrician when they install the 60/48 amp EVSE - the maximum allowed capacity for _ANY_ NEMA based EVSE is 40 amps (9.6 kW) - so if you want 11 kW you _MUST_ have a hardwired unit - nicely avoid the potential high operating temperature issue noted in this post…
for an extremely detailed discussion/overview/deep-history of the PMC+/PMCC please refer to this posting…https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...cc-pwcc.13886/
the long short summary however is - if you're using a PMC+/PMCC and your plan to run it at it's full 9.6 kW capacity - please review your garage's NEMA socket and make sure it's up to the task - otherwise your new Cayenne will stress it in ways your previous model wouldn't…
don't believe me - great - don't believe me! But you can refer to Porsche's official document and see what they say - it's linked in this posting.
and if you think this is fun for the '24 Cayenne Hybrid - just picture how much fun this could be to watch as a whole new crop of Macan EV customers come to understand and love the PMC+/PMCC just like the Taycan community does…
just my $0.02
_IF_ you had a previous hybrid (porsche or otherwise) and you have a PMC+/PMCC installed in your home on a NEMA 14-50/6-50 socket - you might want ot check the brand/quality of the socket prior to using it to charge your new '24 Cayenne. Any/all NEMA 14-50/6-50 sockets + EVSE can run at a max power of 40 amps or 9.6 kW. Running the PMC+/PMCC at these capacities will cause the powersuppy cable provided by Porsche to reach it's maximum operating temperatures (90-100F + ambient) - causeing it to be quite hot - if you do NOT have an industrial grade NEMA socket (hubble) installed your less-expensive plastic socket will be subjected to thermal stress and will likely eventually "fail" due to Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures - plastic sockets don't last very long if they are repeatedly heated/cooled for hours on end on a daily/weekly cycle…
the reason I mention this is that previous Cayennes could not charge at full 9.6 kW - so your existing NEMA socket was never subjected to the same sorts of thermal loads at 3.6/7.2 kW…so even though your existing system may have worked for years prior - the new Cayenne will cause greater thermal loads…
don't believe me - great - no problem - believe Porsche - this is _THEIR_ document on the subject - https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...22530-0001.pdf - they recommend a Hubble commercial/industrial grade socket to tolerate Porsche's EVSE nominal operating temperatures. The Taycan community has suffered with the PMC+/PMCC for years -and actual failures have occured with cheap/non-hubble sockets - Bring this up because an actual failure occurred this week - so it's top of mind - post #24 from this thread is our most recent community failure from the nominal operating temperatures of the PMC+/PMCC at a full 40 amp/9.6 kW…see thread for pic from this week with a PMC+ running at full capacity on a cheaper NEMA socket.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...-2#post-259876
Porsche official response to this is the nhtsa link provided in this posting…they feel their nominal operating temperature is just fine and now required an appropriate grade NEMA socket for the task - they are not wrong…
if you wanna run your new Cayenne at full NEMA 14-50/6-50 capacity (40 amps 9.6 kW) please make sure your NEMA socket is up to the task - the normal plastic $12-$20 leviton sockets are simply not designed for these types of loads with _ANY_ 9.6 kW EVSE - but Porsche's in particular has a high nominal operating temperature that places additional thermal stress on these components and therefore requires appropriate grade be in your garage.
if you want to charge your '24 Cayenne hybrid at it's full 11 kW capacity - you'll need a hardwired 60/48 amp EVSE - from either Porsche (the Porsche wall charger can do it) - and there are non-Porsche EVSE's that can also do 11 kW /(48 amps w/60 amp breaker) - the NEMA socket overheating/melting is _NOT_ an issue with this sort of setup - because there is _NO_ NEMA socket - it will all be hard wired by your electrician when they install the 60/48 amp EVSE - the maximum allowed capacity for _ANY_ NEMA based EVSE is 40 amps (9.6 kW) - so if you want 11 kW you _MUST_ have a hardwired unit - nicely avoid the potential high operating temperature issue noted in this post…
for an extremely detailed discussion/overview/deep-history of the PMC+/PMCC please refer to this posting…https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...cc-pwcc.13886/
the long short summary however is - if you're using a PMC+/PMCC and your plan to run it at it's full 9.6 kW capacity - please review your garage's NEMA socket and make sure it's up to the task - otherwise your new Cayenne will stress it in ways your previous model wouldn't…
don't believe me - great - don't believe me! But you can refer to Porsche's official document and see what they say - it's linked in this posting.
and if you think this is fun for the '24 Cayenne Hybrid - just picture how much fun this could be to watch as a whole new crop of Macan EV customers come to understand and love the PMC+/PMCC just like the Taycan community does…
just my $0.02
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daveo4porsche (08-19-2023)
08-19-2023, 11:48 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
I feel like I just got out of science class!
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08-19-2023, 12:07 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...22530-0001.pdf
for a greater depth on EV charging in general - these threads have been well received (and will solve insomnia problems)
https://rennlist.com/forums/taycan/1...-charging.html
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...cc-pwcc.13886/
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/th...-….2343/
Last edited by daveo4porsche; 08-19-2023 at 12:11 PM.
08-19-2023, 06:17 PM
#5
This is a great post. For my expected 24 hyndrid I have asked my electrician to pull 230V 3 phase 32A and terminate on an industrial 5 pin plug - this is in Europe.
I agree that this is quite complicated and most people will not know what to do or even worse most people will be charging their cars at slower speeds.
I agree that this is quite complicated and most people will not know what to do or even worse most people will be charging their cars at slower speeds.
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08-20-2023, 12:13 AM
#6
The best thing I did was install a 60A 240v with a Juicebox hardwire. JB won’t do 48A without a hardwire for good reason!I hear ClipperCreek has a good outdoor version but their site shows they are now another company.
the Porsche plug went straight to storage. It’s bulky and causes CELs!
good PSA.
the Porsche plug went straight to storage. It’s bulky and causes CELs!
good PSA.
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daveo4porsche (08-20-2023)
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02-07-2024, 06:11 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
EV chargers are called EVSE's (technically the charger is "inside" the vehicle - the external boxes are just fancy on/off swtiches that let AC power flow/no-flow into the onboard AC/DC charger…
EVSE's are not specific to EV vendors or specific types of vehicles - and frankly are a generic power source for virtually any PHEV/EV - so this is a one time thing for your current PHEV/EV and any/all future PHEV/EV - so it's a one time expense
a good 60/48 amp EVSE is an investment for _ALL_ your future Hybrid's or EV's…
60 amp breaker is 48 amps of charge rate (or 11 kW) - and will charge most anything over night from empty - PHEV's even faster (smaller batteries)
so good investment.
02-07-2024, 07:09 PM
#9
yes - you'll be fine
EV chargers are called EVSE's (technically the charger is "inside" the vehicle - the external boxes are just fancy on/off swtiches that let AC power flow/no-flow into the onboard AC/DC charger…
EVSE's are not specific to EV vendors or specific types of vehicles - and frankly are a generic power source for virtually any PHEV/EV - so this is a one time thing for your current PHEV/EV and any/all future PHEV/EV - so it's a one time expense
a good 60/48 amp EVSE is an investment for _ALL_ your future Hybrid's or EV's…
60 amp breaker is 48 amps of charge rate (or 11 kW) - and will charge most anything over night from empty - PHEV's even faster (smaller batteries)
so good investment.
EV chargers are called EVSE's (technically the charger is "inside" the vehicle - the external boxes are just fancy on/off swtiches that let AC power flow/no-flow into the onboard AC/DC charger…
EVSE's are not specific to EV vendors or specific types of vehicles - and frankly are a generic power source for virtually any PHEV/EV - so this is a one time thing for your current PHEV/EV and any/all future PHEV/EV - so it's a one time expense
a good 60/48 amp EVSE is an investment for _ALL_ your future Hybrid's or EV's…
60 amp breaker is 48 amps of charge rate (or 11 kW) - and will charge most anything over night from empty - PHEV's even faster (smaller batteries)
so good investment.
Electrician came today. $1,500 for a 120' feed to the garage from sub-panel 60A breaker in the basement. Don't think that's too bad. Open to feedback.
When it comes to EVSEs i'm limited to ChargePointe and Juicebox due to local electric company incentives (essentially it'll be free) and install gets another $500 off. Any strong recommendations on one vs the other?
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daveo4porsche (02-07-2024)
02-07-2024, 07:20 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
First off, thanks a mil for all the knowledge and advice when it comes to this.
Electrician came today. $1,500 for a 120' feed to the garage from sub-panel 60A breaker in the basement. Don't think that's too bad. Open to feedback.
When it comes to EVSEs i'm limited to ChargePointe and Juicebox due to local electric company incentives (essentially it'll be free) and install gets another $500 off. Any strong recommendations on one vs the other?
Electrician came today. $1,500 for a 120' feed to the garage from sub-panel 60A breaker in the basement. Don't think that's too bad. Open to feedback.
When it comes to EVSEs i'm limited to ChargePointe and Juicebox due to local electric company incentives (essentially it'll be free) and install gets another $500 off. Any strong recommendations on one vs the other?
120 feet is a LONG ways and copper is expensive - so to me your quote seems fair/cheap - cost here is wire + labor - install wire gauge for 60/80/100 amps - you might be surprised that incremental cost difference is minimal - and if you had wire for 80/100 amp gives you options in the future for easy multi-EV support - with out pulling new wire - breakers are cheap, EVSE's are cheap - cost here is labor/permit/wire - do it once - upgrade it later...wire gauge is the KEY aspect here - so heavier duty wire for future might be worth it - it's a personal choice
60 amps is more than suffiicent - but more is better - you can install 80/100 amp wire and still install a 60/48 amp EVSE no problem - and swap/upgrade in the future very easy _IF_ the wire is already pulled.
02-07-2024, 07:40 PM
#11
both are excellent - I'm partial to the ChargePoint but Taycan forum users have both and seem to be happy with either.
120 feet is a LONG ways and copper is expensive - so to me your quote seems fair/cheap - cost here is wire + labor - install wire gauge for 60/80/100 amps - you might be surprised that incremental cost difference is minimal - and if you had wire for 80/100 amp gives you options in the future for easy multi-EV support - with out pulling new wire - breakers are cheap, EVSE's are cheap - cost here is labor/permit/wire - do it once - upgrade it later...wire gauge is the KEY aspect here - so heavier duty wire for future might be worth it - it's a personal choice
60 amps is more than suffiicent - but more is better - you can install 80/100 amp wire and still install a 60/48 amp EVSE no problem - and swap/upgrade in the future very easy _IF_ the wire is already pulled.
120 feet is a LONG ways and copper is expensive - so to me your quote seems fair/cheap - cost here is wire + labor - install wire gauge for 60/80/100 amps - you might be surprised that incremental cost difference is minimal - and if you had wire for 80/100 amp gives you options in the future for easy multi-EV support - with out pulling new wire - breakers are cheap, EVSE's are cheap - cost here is labor/permit/wire - do it once - upgrade it later...wire gauge is the KEY aspect here - so heavier duty wire for future might be worth it - it's a personal choice
60 amps is more than suffiicent - but more is better - you can install 80/100 amp wire and still install a 60/48 amp EVSE no problem - and swap/upgrade in the future very easy _IF_ the wire is already pulled.
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daveo4porsche (02-07-2024)
02-07-2024, 08:11 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
We are future proofing-ish. My main panel is a 200A panel that feeds a 100A sub-panel that we are tapping to for the 60A. I suggested we do 100A instead of 60A and he said that pulling 100A out of the main 200A panel might not be a good idea. I told him to quote me running 3GA wire in case we have to upgrade the panel in the future, we don't have to run a new line.
02-08-2024, 03:22 PM
#13
yes - you'll be fine
EV chargers are called EVSE's (technically the charger is "inside" the vehicle - the external boxes are just fancy on/off swtiches that let AC power flow/no-flow into the onboard AC/DC charger…
EVSE's are not specific to EV vendors or specific types of vehicles - and frankly are a generic power source for virtually any PHEV/EV - so this is a one time thing for your current PHEV/EV and any/all future PHEV/EV - so it's a one time expense
a good 60/48 amp EVSE is an investment for _ALL_ your future Hybrid's or EV's…
60 amp breaker is 48 amps of charge rate (or 11 kW) - and will charge most anything over night from empty - PHEV's even faster (smaller batteries)
so good investment.
EV chargers are called EVSE's (technically the charger is "inside" the vehicle - the external boxes are just fancy on/off swtiches that let AC power flow/no-flow into the onboard AC/DC charger…
EVSE's are not specific to EV vendors or specific types of vehicles - and frankly are a generic power source for virtually any PHEV/EV - so this is a one time thing for your current PHEV/EV and any/all future PHEV/EV - so it's a one time expense
a good 60/48 amp EVSE is an investment for _ALL_ your future Hybrid's or EV's…
60 amp breaker is 48 amps of charge rate (or 11 kW) - and will charge most anything over night from empty - PHEV's even faster (smaller batteries)
so good investment.
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daveo4porsche (07-07-2024),
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02-08-2024, 04:19 PM
#15
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ThomasWShea (02-08-2024)