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I have more details. I booked an appointment and my SA said they aren't aware of the fix. We dove into it deeper with the shop foreman and PCNA. Turns out this "fix" is a software update to PIWIS tester to clear the code itself. It's a stop gap while they work on a longer fix. Dealers will happily help but no guarantees on issue not recurring. It's definitely an issue related to the onboard charging unit. E3S3U is apparently an internal bulletin code not a campaign code. Looks like we are back to waiting for an official recall.
Taking my car in next week to get the temporary fix anyways. Can't hurt beyond the current status quo. Will keep y'all posted.
All done. Wife confirmed no more CEL. Will keep y'all posted as we charge it a few times and drive it a few hundred miles. Like others have said, took ~10 mins to apply update.
CEL Experience with 2019 Cayenne e-Hybrid, 7.2 kWh charger/240 V.
I reactivated this thread hoping that my experience will help in some cases when seeing a yellow, steady (not flashing) CEL with no accompanying warning. I have a 2019 Cayenne e-hybrid purchased new in Nov 2019. It only has 9,472 miles. 5,000 with the gas engine, but 3,000-3,400 of that was on long, over 300-mile, one-way trips to see family members. And this could be a factor in getting the CEL, as described below. I saw the CEL on two occasions. Within a few hundred miles of taking delivery in early December 2019 and just a few days ago.
The first time, the sales advisor at the dealership asked if I had been using the gas engine or just electric. My answer was EV-only because my wife and I were amazed at how we could do all of our errands almost all the time without the ICE and charge when returning home. We rarely ran the gas engine. The Svc Advisor said you need to run the gas engine in order to keep the 12V battery charged. I did that and a few days later the CEL cleared. I never did learn the OBD code. It might have been in this thread that someone posted this interesting Excellence article from 2015: Porsche’s Hybrids Systems | Issue 229 | Excellence | The Magazine About Porsche (excellence-mag.com). It suggests that the high-voltage battery keeps the 12V battery charged. If that's true, then the Svc Advisor was mistaken, but knowing him and his experience, that's hard to believe. This Car & Driver review has a similar discussion of the relationship between the high-voltage battery and the 12V battery: 2019 Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid First Drive (caranddriver.com)
On this recent CEL light issue, I started using the ICE exclusively for the past two days (not a lot of miles, though) and the CEL cleared. In neither of these instances was the gas cap a problem. Since moving from VA to CA last December, we use the ICE more because we exceed the all-EV range, but the brief use of the ICE (as little as 5 miles) might not be sufficient to keep the 12V battery charged (if indeed that was the problem) - but that driving style (brief ICE operation) could be leading to one of the other issues mentioned. Maybe these short durations of ICE running (probably a rich mixture) are fouling the catalytic converters, which is why running the engine in Sport and Sport+ long enough to raise converter temperatures is resolving the CEL root cause. I didn't have an opportunity to get an OBD code, but when I'm at a dealership, I'll see if they can look at the history. The annual service was done within the last two months, so any outstanding campaigns should have been completed then.
I saw reference to using a 12V trickle charger for the Cayenne e-hybrid. I have one for our other Porsche, a 911, but was told it won't work on the Cayenne even though the charger is the latest model with the lithium-ion setting. Perhaps 12V receptacle in the center console isn't wired to accept a charge.
Also, the root cause in my case appears to be less significant than other potential CEL issues, especially if flashing and/or red vs. my solid level. I continued driving the car because performance was normal and all dash parameters including oil level were normal (battery was 13.2V, as I recall). For this recent experience, I sensed that the problem could be fixed by driving (somewhat in a higher rev band than normal but not crazy) as happened the first time in 2019.
This is our first Cayenne, and I am amazed by it, not only for all the driving modes, but also the mileage in hybrid mode once there is insufficient battery output for pure EV operation. I've seen 23 to 26 mpg on hilly interstates going 65 to 70 mph. My expectations for performance are pretty high based having owned 911s and a Boxster, but I am blown away by how this 5,060-lb SUV performs. I plan to purchase it at the end of the lease this November.
This forum has been a great help through my ownership in understanding details about the e-hybrid. One thing I've wondered about is how the ICE can get lubricated sufficiently if it come on during significant demand, e.g., if EV no longer available and the ICE comes in at high rpm, high load. Or even when engaged while in pure EV mode when going up a steep hill or when needing additional power. I drive the 911 (PDK) with paddle shifters, so if I want to slow down, I sometimes downshift in EV mode on the Cayenne and bring in the ICE from a cold start. Ouch. There must be a lot of engineering behind the design.
A couple observations based on comments in other threads:
- eV range after a full charge (2019 model) can be as high as an indicated 25 mpg, but usually 23-24. It seems to depend on how the Cayenne was recently driven before the charge cycle. Range is better in warmer temperatures. Driving like entrants in those old Mobil Economy Runs (egg between the foot and the accelerator, coasting, etc.), I can eek out 20-21 miles; usually it's about 18. I've started setting the trip odometer after charging to measure range to the end of pure EV running.
- I'm accustomed to the brakes being a bit grabby with squeals when parking. Hill control snags the car easily even when on level ground. At first, I wondered why the car didn't move when pressing on the accelerator with normal pressure.
- I swear there have been occasions when the Surround View stopped giving an audible warning. I had to clear the small mute icon at the top of the screen. I wonder what combination of things caused that.
- At first, I didn't bother unlocking the car when removing the charger plug (Chargepoint at an apartment complex where we were living temporarily). With some force and wrestling it came out which surprised me re: security, etc. It's a lot easier now that I'm unlocking the car first.
- I should use the 20-second boost more often. This SUV amazes me.
- Living in the land of Range Rovers, Bentaygas, the occasional Cullinan, Uruses (Uri?), Levantes and some nice-looking Audi SUVs, I don't think that there is a better-looking SUV out here that the Cayenne, IMHO.
I reactivated this thread hoping that my experience will help in some cases when seeing a yellow, steady (not flashing) CEL with no accompanying warning. I have a 2019 Cayenne e-hybrid purchased new in Nov 2019. It only has 9,472 miles. 5,000 with the gas engine, but 3,000-3,400 of that was on long, over 300-mile, one-way trips to see family members. And this could be a factor in getting the CEL, as described below. I saw the CEL on two occasions. Within a few hundred miles of taking delivery in early December 2019 and just a few days ago.
The first time, the sales advisor at the dealership asked if I had been using the gas engine or just electric. My answer was EV-only because my wife and I were amazed at how we could do all of our errands almost all the time without the ICE and charge when returning home. We rarely ran the gas engine. The Svc Advisor said you need to run the gas engine in order to keep the 12V battery charged. I did that and a few days later the CEL cleared. I never did learn the OBD code. It might have been in this thread that someone posted this interesting Excellence article from 2015: Porsche’s Hybrids Systems | Issue 229 | Excellence | The Magazine About Porsche (excellence-mag.com). It suggests that the high-voltage battery keeps the 12V battery charged. If that's true, then the Svc Advisor was mistaken, but knowing him and his experience, that's hard to believe. This Car & Driver review has a similar discussion of the relationship between the high-voltage battery and the 12V battery: 2019 Porsche Cayenne E-Hybrid First Drive (caranddriver.com)
On this recent CEL light issue, I started using the ICE exclusively for the past two days (not a lot of miles, though) and the CEL cleared. In neither of these instances was the gas cap a problem. Since moving from VA to CA last December, we use the ICE more because we exceed the all-EV range, but the brief use of the ICE (as little as 5 miles) might not be sufficient to keep the 12V battery charged (if indeed that was the problem) - but that driving style (brief ICE operation) could be leading to one of the other issues mentioned. Maybe these short durations of ICE running (probably a rich mixture) are fouling the catalytic converters, which is why running the engine in Sport and Sport+ long enough to raise converter temperatures is resolving the CEL root cause. I didn't have an opportunity to get an OBD code, but when I'm at a dealership, I'll see if they can look at the history. The annual service was done within the last two months, so any outstanding campaigns should have been completed then.
I saw reference to using a 12V trickle charger for the Cayenne e-hybrid. I have one for our other Porsche, a 911, but was told it won't work on the Cayenne even though the charger is the latest model with the lithium-ion setting. Perhaps 12V receptacle in the center console isn't wired to accept a charge.
Also, the root cause in my case appears to be less significant than other potential CEL issues, especially if flashing and/or red vs. my solid level. I continued driving the car because performance was normal and all dash parameters including oil level were normal (battery was 13.2V, as I recall). For this recent experience, I sensed that the problem could be fixed by driving (somewhat in a higher rev band than normal but not crazy) as happened the first time in 2019.
This is our first Cayenne, and I am amazed by it, not only for all the driving modes, but also the mileage in hybrid mode once there is insufficient battery output for pure EV operation. I've seen 23 to 26 mpg on hilly interstates going 65 to 70 mph. My expectations for performance are pretty high based having owned 911s and a Boxster, but I am blown away by how this 5,060-lb SUV performs. I plan to purchase it at the end of the lease this November.
This forum has been a great help through my ownership in understanding details about the e-hybrid. One thing I've wondered about is how the ICE can get lubricated sufficiently if it come on during significant demand, e.g., if EV no longer available and the ICE comes in at high rpm, high load. Or even when engaged while in pure EV mode when going up a steep hill or when needing additional power. I drive the 911 (PDK) with paddle shifters, so if I want to slow down, I sometimes downshift in EV mode on the Cayenne and bring in the ICE from a cold start. Ouch. There must be a lot of engineering behind the design.
A couple observations based on comments in other threads:
- eV range after a full charge (2019 model) can be as high as an indicated 25 mpg, but usually 23-24. It seems to depend on how the Cayenne was recently driven before the charge cycle. Range is better in warmer temperatures. Driving like entrants in those old Mobil Economy Runs (egg between the foot and the accelerator, coasting, etc.), I can eek out 20-21 miles; usually it's about 18. I've started setting the trip odometer after charging to measure range to the end of pure EV running.
- I'm accustomed to the brakes being a bit grabby with squeals when parking. Hill control snags the car easily even when on level ground. At first, I wondered why the car didn't move when pressing on the accelerator with normal pressure.
- I swear there have been occasions when the Surround View stopped giving an audible warning. I had to clear the small mute icon at the top of the screen. I wonder what combination of things caused that.
- At first, I didn't bother unlocking the car when removing the charger plug (Chargepoint at an apartment complex where we were living temporarily). With some force and wrestling it came out which surprised me re: security, etc. It's a lot easier now that I'm unlocking the car first.
- I should use the 20-second boost more often. This SUV amazes me.
- Living in the land of Range Rovers, Bentaygas, the occasional Cullinan, Uruses (Uri?), Levantes and some nice-looking Audi SUVs, I don't think that there is a better-looking SUV out here that the Cayenne, IMHO.
2019 Porsche Cayenne e-hybrid
what error code is being thrown by your vehicle - this thread refers to a very specific issue…
I don’t have the error code but will try to get to a dealer to have them read the history. Because my issue didn’t require a parts replacement, it could be the issue regarding carbon fouling the catalytic converters based on short-duration ICE operation or the claimed failure to charge the 12V battery because the ICE was not running sufficiently. Whatever the root cause, driving the car exclusively in Sport and Sport+ for a couple of days and less than 100 miles resolved the issue even though I was not driving at exceptionally high rpms as I was influenced by the $6.75/gal price for premium where I live. I posted, in part, to help ensure that owners with a steady yellow CEL and no warning message do additional research if their dealer wants to keep the car for three weeks.
Finally had an opportunity to go to a Porsche dealer to check to see if there was an OBD code related to my recent CEL experience. My CEL light had already cleared. The only stored code was B3A12 and there was a statement: "Please refer to the vehicle service manual." I was told that this is a generic code, and the service advisor was unable to find a specific problem description. My Google searches turned up only one item, and it was on a BMW service webpage. It read: "B3A12 Air Conditioning Refrigerant Expansion Valve Controller Temperature - Range or Power Problem". A/C in our Cayenne appears to be working fine. Another source stated, as B3A12 is a generic code, different manufacturers can assign different faults to it. Another source stated: B = "Body", 3 = generic, A = hybrid trouble code, 12 is the fault assigned by the manufacturer.
So, in summary, I had two CEL conditions. Both occurred after prolonged all-electric operation for a few weeks with very little running of the ICE - just enough to keep it lubricated. Service advisor in 2019 believed driving with ICE was needed to charge the 12-V battery (as mentioned in the previous message(s) that might not be how the battery is charged). The second advisor - different dealership about three weeks ago said it can result from starting the ICE after a prolonged period of not running.
I guess I could have simply posted: "I found the code, it is generic and unrelated to the CEL for which I never found a clear root cause. Driving a few days with the ICE cleared the fault."
I have a 2021 Cayenne e hybride which continued to generate check engine lights. It stared right after I got it, probably less than 600 miles. I have been getting it once a month for over a year now. My dealer is great and lets me stop buy whenever I see it but there isn’t much they can do. The first time is was on but it didn’t store any codes so there wasn’t much they could do. The next time they saw it on but when they went back to the service area it went off again with no codes. It can be fine for a month and then for no reason it comes one. It doesn’t matter if it is driving in electric, hybride or sport modes. 3 months ago the light was on and they read the code and said it was the control valve on the battery cooling. they replace the valve and I was feeling great. A month later the darn light re appeared. One more trip to the dealer and they saw the same cooling valve issue. After some research they said the problem is when the computer runs its diagnostics the valves doesn't’ alway respond fast enough and the computer thinks there is a problem. He said Porsche is aware of the issue but there is nothing to be done until they fix the software. As others have mentioned I find this disturbing since I never know if something is really wrong. I am now afraid to take in on a long trip in case there is something wrong. I read about the lemon law but to order another one I risk getting having the same problem . It is a terrific car. My wife has a 2019 regular Cayenne. She doesn’t have any issues. Any advice on writing Porsche or what else I should do? Since Porsche has know about this for a while I have no confidence they will ultimately fix it. I should also mention this is not related to not charging the 12 volt battery. The light has come on a few days after a 300 mile trip. I also keep a battery tender that has a setting for lithium batteries if it sits for a while without running the ICE.
Last edited by 1stCayenne; 10-30-2022 at 07:59 PM.
I apologize if you already know this from this thread or dealer visits, but I had the same issue with our 2019 e-hybrid. We were living in an urban area and could do almost all of our errands and short trips without using the gas engine. The CEL came on and the Porsche Service Advisor told me to drive the car using the ICE to charge the 12-volt battery, which was losing its charge because I had run almost exclusively in EV mode. I have had the CEL come on in the past few months and again, driving with the ICE eliminated the CEL after two or three days of short ICE trips. This past week, when speaking with my current Service Advisor on another matter, he confirmed that not running at all in ICE mode can result in a CEL because the 12-volt battery needs charging. And, yes, the Cayenne e-hybrid is great!
There are many other postings here about false check-engine light alerts.
Like the boy who cried wolf, this proliferation of false alarms can lead to complacency, and when a genuine alert goes unheeded, damage can occur.
However, given what seems to be a very large ratio of false alarms to genuine alarms, unless there is something obviously wrong, it seems to me the wisest course of action is to simply ignore them.
I have a 2021 Cayenne e hybride which continued to generate check engine lights. It stared right after I got it, probably less than 600 miles. I have been getting it once a month for over a year now. My dealer is great and lets me stop buy when ever I see it but there isn’t much they can do. The first time is was on but it didn’t store and codes so there wasn’t much they could do. The next time they saw it on but when they went back to the service area it went off again with no codes. It can be fine for a month and then for not reason it comes one. It doesn’t matter if it is driving in electric, hybride or sport modes. 3 months ago the light was on and they read the code and said it was the control valve on the battery cooling. they replace the valve and I was feeling great. A month later the darn light re appeared. Once more trip to the dealer and they saw the same cooling valve issue. After some research they said the problem is when the computer runs its diagnostics the valves doesn't’ alway respond fast enough and the computer thinks there is a problem. He said Porsche is aware of the issue but there is nothing to be done until they fix the software. As others have mentioned I find this disturbing since I never know if something is really wrong. I am now afraid to take in on a long trip in case there is something wrong. I read about the lemon law but to order another one I risk getting having the same problem . It is a terrific car. My wife has a 2019 regular Cayenne. She doesn’t have any issues. Any advice on writing Porsche or what else I should do? Since Porsche has know about this for a while I have no confidence they will ultimately fix it.
one additional point. I do keep my 12 battery charged. I use a battery tender if parked for a long time but my check engine light still comes on. It also come on a few days after a 300 Mile trip. The dealer says it has to do with a cooling valve for the high voltage battery. They replaced it but it is an issue of the valve not responding fast enough to the computer. No idea why this is an issue on my car and not everyone’s
For those of you driving in mostly electric mode with the ICE not coming on, and then getting a CEL, I wonder if there's a limit as to how long the car can be driven with no ICE before the 12-volt battery dies. From our 3-PHEV ownership (Panamera 4 E-Hybrid; RAV4 Prime; XC60 T8 ER), we've never encountered a 12-volt battery dying in 4.5 years of driving our PHEVs, and we do most of our local driving in electric-only mode, often going weeks of daily driving without the ICE coming on at all. Our RAV4 and XC60 get 50 and 40 miles of all-electric range in local driving in warm weather (respectively), and we plug in nightly, rarely driving more than 40 miles in a single day with any of our vehicles. I suspect that plugging in nightly helps, because I know that Volvo explicitly states that, when charging the traction battery, the 12-volt battery is also being charged. So if you drive only in electric mode and don't charge for a few days, I wonder if that might be the problem in some cases (as it is with Volvo PHEVs, in which some owners have reported 12-volt batteries dying in such cases).
I apologize if you already know this from this thread or dealer visits, but I had the same issue with our 2019 e-hybrid. We were living in an urban area and could do almost all of our errands and short trips without using the gas engine. The CEL came on and the Porsche Service Advisor told me to drive the car using the ICE to charge the 12-volt battery, which was losing its charge because I had run almost exclusively in EV mode. I have had the CEL come on in the past few months and again, driving with the ICE eliminated the CEL after two or three days of short ICE trips. This past week, when speaking with my current Service Advisor on another matter, he confirmed that not running at all in ICE mode can result in a CEL because the 12-volt battery needs charging. And, yes, the Cayenne e-hybrid is great!
Apparently our hybrids don't have alternators so it seems like it would be the high voltage battery charging the 12V battery when driving. I've read that when charging the high voltage battery, it also tends the 12V battery.
I have noticed that in situations where the 12V battery dies, after I jump the car and start the car, the ICE turns on right away. Normally the car starts in EV mode only.
My 12V battery dying issue should be fixed from a campaign the dealer implemented recently. It was a software issue with the door control unit in the passenger side door, which would cause the battery to drain. Prior to the fix our 12V battery died a handful of times and the alarm would frequently go off.
Last edited by Lphiesmacks10; 10-31-2022 at 09:59 AM.
12V Battery Charging + Software Fix + Great Thread On This
Originally Posted by Lphiesmacks10
Apparently our hybrids don't have alternators so it seems like it would be the high voltage battery charging the 12V battery when driving. I've read that when charging the high voltage battery, it also tends the 12V battery.
I have noticed that in situations where the 12V battery dies, after I jump the car and start the car, the ICE turns on right away. Normally the car starts in EV mode only.
My 12V battery dying issue should be fixed from a campaign the dealer implemented recently. It was a software issue with the door control unit in the passenger side door, which would cause the battery to drain. Prior to the fix our 12V battery died a handful of times and the alarm would frequently go off.
Thanks for your message. I read the same thing here on the Rennlist forum - that the 12V battery is charged by the high-voltage battery. If so, I wonder why charging the 12V battery occurs only while driving and not also when the vehicle is charging. The Service Advisor who told me that the ICE needs to be running also said the car needs to be under load, although the latter part could apply if, in fact, the 12V battery is charged by the high-voltage battery.
Your comment about your car starting in ICE mode vs. EV mode reminded me of something that occurred a few days ago. My wife and I stopped to talk to a neighbor. I put the car in "Park" but didn't turn off the "ignition" (term seems more ICE than EV). After a few minutes, the ICE engine turned on as it to ensure that the 12V battery that is presumably running systems in the background didn't discharge. That would support the claim that it is the ICE that charges the 12V battery. I will do some additional checking. It amazes me that there are two different explanations out there.
My SA also mentioned the 12V battery "recall", and although we didn't discuss details, he said it was important for battery life - might be the same campaign that you mentioned.
Before sending this message, I figured that I should do some research. I found this terrific Rennlist thread from earlier this year: eHybrid charging - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums. "Schnave" posted excellent info on this. Message #6 has great resources and #16 references an alternator, but not mounted on the ICE! Post #16 could explain why the Cayenne needs to be under load (driving) when charging the battery with the high-voltage battery.
06-16-2022, 05:05 PM
