SUVs as second car
11-07-2002, 10:04 PM
#46
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[quote]I think people are upset about it because they think they won't seem as cool when they say "I drive a Porsche."
Don't we have a word for that? Starting with a "P"? <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, the one that comes to mind as it relates to buying the $100K P-fish is poseur
And a sad one at that, considering they could have spent $30-60K less an had the better looking T-egg.
[quote]I said there's no reason the Cayenne shouldn't be considered a big car rather than a truck. Since Porsche doesn't have an existing truck, there's now way to say it's based on a "truck platform." <hr></blockquote>
Sorry, Brickster but read up on what is basically a VAG truck platform (financed in a large part with PAG DMs). Is it the old fashioned "frame rail" truck design? Nope, not even Ford or GM makes them anymore, but it is also not the Passat sedan platform. It really can only function as a truck, perhaps a pick-up or an minivan (or perhaps a limo
) could be based off this platform.
[quote]Further, there are SUVs based on existing "car platforms," such as the RX300 or the ML. It is certainly no less a "sports car" than a SEDAN. <hr></blockquote>
An SUV as a "sports car" is a bit of an oxymoron. Nothing weighing in at 5000lbs can be considered a sports car. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Don't we have a word for that? Starting with a "P"? <hr></blockquote>
Yeah, the one that comes to mind as it relates to buying the $100K P-fish is poseur
And a sad one at that, considering they could have spent $30-60K less an had the better looking T-egg.[quote]I said there's no reason the Cayenne shouldn't be considered a big car rather than a truck. Since Porsche doesn't have an existing truck, there's now way to say it's based on a "truck platform." <hr></blockquote>
Sorry, Brickster but read up on what is basically a VAG truck platform (financed in a large part with PAG DMs). Is it the old fashioned "frame rail" truck design? Nope, not even Ford or GM makes them anymore, but it is also not the Passat sedan platform. It really can only function as a truck, perhaps a pick-up or an minivan (or perhaps a limo
) could be based off this platform. [quote]Further, there are SUVs based on existing "car platforms," such as the RX300 or the ML. It is certainly no less a "sports car" than a SEDAN. <hr></blockquote>
An SUV as a "sports car" is a bit of an oxymoron. Nothing weighing in at 5000lbs can be considered a sports car. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
11-07-2002, 10:07 PM
#47
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[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>
You might want to re-read what I wrote.
I said there's no reason the Cayenne shouldn't be considered a big car rather than a truck. Since Porsche doesn't have an existing truck, there's now way to say it's based on a "truck platform." Further, there are SUVs based on existing "car platforms," such as the RX300 or the ML. It is certainly no less a "sports car" than a SEDAN.
At NO point did I say the Cayenne was light or small.
Look, you can hate this vehicle all you want, but the fact remains that there were very sound reasons for developing it, that Porsche has looked at developing other than sports cars for most of its existence, and that the Cayenne isn't going away, and will likely be a significant success.
I think people are upset about it because they think they won't seem as cool when they say "I drive a Porsche."
Don't we have a word for that? Starting with a "P"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, I got it, that's why I asked if you meant that, I wasn't sure (it's me and my bad Englisgh & I'm sorry about it).
However, I'd like to know what are those very sound reasons (other than making money) for a true sportscar sompany to go to a totally different direction, and build an SUV?
And I still don't get how this, 5200 lb SUV is as much of an sportscar as sedan is (assuming that they both would be modifid for track)?
Let's see: Subaru WRX vs. Cayenne as a track car, or BMW M5 vs. Cayenne as a track car...
I can't help it, to me, for example, M5 sounds like a helluva better sportscar than what Cayenne does.
<strong>
You might want to re-read what I wrote.
I said there's no reason the Cayenne shouldn't be considered a big car rather than a truck. Since Porsche doesn't have an existing truck, there's now way to say it's based on a "truck platform." Further, there are SUVs based on existing "car platforms," such as the RX300 or the ML. It is certainly no less a "sports car" than a SEDAN.
At NO point did I say the Cayenne was light or small.
Look, you can hate this vehicle all you want, but the fact remains that there were very sound reasons for developing it, that Porsche has looked at developing other than sports cars for most of its existence, and that the Cayenne isn't going away, and will likely be a significant success.
I think people are upset about it because they think they won't seem as cool when they say "I drive a Porsche."
Don't we have a word for that? Starting with a "P"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, I got it, that's why I asked if you meant that, I wasn't sure (it's me and my bad Englisgh & I'm sorry about it).
However, I'd like to know what are those very sound reasons (other than making money) for a true sportscar sompany to go to a totally different direction, and build an SUV?
And I still don't get how this, 5200 lb SUV is as much of an sportscar as sedan is (assuming that they both would be modifid for track)?
Let's see: Subaru WRX vs. Cayenne as a track car, or BMW M5 vs. Cayenne as a track car...
I can't help it, to me, for example, M5 sounds like a helluva better sportscar than what Cayenne does.
11-07-2002, 10:32 PM
#48
Looks...?
Focus...?
Sports's sedan...?
100K...?
These points - waste of oxygen - are well taken, but, some folks might actually buy a Cayenne.
The engine/drivetrain/suspension deserve a look see, period. Walks like a duck, right?
Until I actually get to walk around one I'll reserve my judgment on looks - you might try that -.
Phil,
You find a disappointed owner in Europe who will give you those unacceptable terms just let me know ... first! For, undoubtably, there will be THOUSANDS of Porsche owners standing in line for a free Cayenne - I'll wax it every week, honest! -
AND I'LL PAY THE FREIGHT.
FF,
Did you write somewhere that you were 30 something? If so, the SUV FAD has been around for most, if not all, of your life.
If you run back thru the Jeep Wagoneer/Toyota Land Cruiser era, your parents hadn't met yet.
As to a loss of focus; Survival, Expanded Product Line to spread the risks', solid profit, FIRST!
As far as I know: the majority of stock at least until recently belongs to a certain VW CEO.
So the fad arguement is null and void, and the money/control - who's focus ? - issue may be anyone's BUT Porsche's.
I see that the weight has also dropped from that 6000lb post...Slim Fast maybe? Pretty respectable 0-60 mph and 1/4 times for a 5200lb SUV.
Now let's work on that phat '100k' P fish.
IMO Porsche will be around longer than the both of us and our children. Porsche will be involved in racing to varying extent in part dictated by its fortunes in the sales department.
As far as sales go, and back to the topic.
I won't be able to afford either model of the Cayenne...new.
But if bad fortune befalls Porsche in selling the Cayenne, or, they get undervalued like my 928 I see a Cayenne in my future ... not as a second car but, as a daily driver.
BTW the 917 series was fantastic but, milked a lot of cash out of a small company in Germany, wasn't a sports car either
Want to rain on a parade start woofin' on the AZTEC.
P.S. You know what a Merc. 500 SEL or worse the AMG version weighs? Pretty limber for a heavy weight, eh?
Who was talking compact sports sedan, anyway?
Thought so...
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Focus...?
Sports's sedan...?
100K...?
These points - waste of oxygen - are well taken, but, some folks might actually buy a Cayenne.
The engine/drivetrain/suspension deserve a look see, period. Walks like a duck, right?
Until I actually get to walk around one I'll reserve my judgment on looks - you might try that -.
Phil,
You find a disappointed owner in Europe who will give you those unacceptable terms just let me know ... first! For, undoubtably, there will be THOUSANDS of Porsche owners standing in line for a free Cayenne - I'll wax it every week, honest! -
AND I'LL PAY THE FREIGHT.
FF,
Did you write somewhere that you were 30 something? If so, the SUV FAD has been around for most, if not all, of your life.
If you run back thru the Jeep Wagoneer/Toyota Land Cruiser era, your parents hadn't met yet.
As to a loss of focus; Survival, Expanded Product Line to spread the risks', solid profit, FIRST!
As far as I know: the majority of stock at least until recently belongs to a certain VW CEO.
So the fad arguement is null and void, and the money/control - who's focus ? - issue may be anyone's BUT Porsche's.
I see that the weight has also dropped from that 6000lb post...Slim Fast maybe? Pretty respectable 0-60 mph and 1/4 times for a 5200lb SUV.
Now let's work on that phat '100k' P fish.
IMO Porsche will be around longer than the both of us and our children. Porsche will be involved in racing to varying extent in part dictated by its fortunes in the sales department.
As far as sales go, and back to the topic.
I won't be able to afford either model of the Cayenne...new.
But if bad fortune befalls Porsche in selling the Cayenne, or, they get undervalued like my 928 I see a Cayenne in my future ... not as a second car but, as a daily driver.
BTW the 917 series was fantastic but, milked a lot of cash out of a small company in Germany, wasn't a sports car either
Want to rain on a parade start woofin' on the AZTEC.
P.S. You know what a Merc. 500 SEL or worse the AMG version weighs? Pretty limber for a heavy weight, eh?
Who was talking compact sports sedan, anyway?
Thought so...
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-07-2002, 10:44 PM
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[quote]Want to rain on a parade start woofin' on the AZTEC. <hr></blockquote>
Umm John, do you mean as a point of comparison? If so then its more like a howl
[quote]The engine/drivetrain/suspension deserve a look see, period.
Until I actually get to walk around one I'll reserve my judgment on looks - you might try that <hr></blockquote>
Totally agree on the drvie train - sounds sweet (and may be the saving grace - except for that bad economy/market timing thing hanging over this launch ). But you know what they say about a picture telling a 1000 stories - the story these pictures are telling is homely. Sorry to rain on anyones parade, but this is a shape only Chris Bangle would love
Dark colors will be the only way to go with this rig.
[quote]BTW the 917 series was fantastic but, milked a lot of cash out of a small company in Germany <hr></blockquote>
Cost a lot true - but definitely helped build the brand reputation which helped drive a lot of sales. The big question is will the P-fish enhance the brand image or deminish it?
Umm John, do you mean as a point of comparison? If so then its more like a howl
[quote]The engine/drivetrain/suspension deserve a look see, period.
Until I actually get to walk around one I'll reserve my judgment on looks - you might try that <hr></blockquote>
Totally agree on the drvie train - sounds sweet (and may be the saving grace - except for that bad economy/market timing thing hanging over this launch
). But you know what they say about a picture telling a 1000 stories - the story these pictures are telling is homely. Sorry to rain on anyones parade, but this is a shape only Chris Bangle would love Dark colors will be the only way to go with this rig.
[quote]BTW the 917 series was fantastic but, milked a lot of cash out of a small company in Germany <hr></blockquote>
Cost a lot true - but definitely helped build the brand reputation which helped drive a lot of sales. The big question is will the P-fish enhance the brand image or deminish it?
11-07-2002, 11:42 PM
#50
The C' car markets over here ... when?
December?
Proof is in the pudding...blah, blah, blah.
If the Cayenne 'stands up' on performance, handling, safety, durability, comfort the only real issue will be looks and cost.
I'm waiting to EXAMINE one, jury's out on that strange two tone highlight around rear bumper area.
As I type this I know there are Cayennes' in country, on ships and staging for shipment in Europe. Let's give this puppie a chance.
A terrifying thought...
A lot of people LIKED THE LOOK OF AMC's PACER!
And I, personally, owned 5 VW Beetles - never said they were pretty though -. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
December?
Proof is in the pudding...blah, blah, blah.
If the Cayenne 'stands up' on performance, handling, safety, durability, comfort the only real issue will be looks and cost.
I'm waiting to EXAMINE one, jury's out on that strange two tone highlight around rear bumper area.
As I type this I know there are Cayennes' in country, on ships and staging for shipment in Europe. Let's give this puppie a chance.
A terrifying thought...
A lot of people LIKED THE LOOK OF AMC's PACER!
And I, personally, owned 5 VW Beetles - never said they were pretty though -.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-07-2002, 11:45 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>
OK, I got it, that's why I asked if you meant that, I wasn't sure (it's me and my bad Englisgh & I'm sorry about it).
However, I'd like to know what are those very sound reasons (other than making money) for a true sportscar sompany to go to a totally different direction, and build an SUV?
And I still don't get how this, 5200 lb SUV is as much of an sportscar as sedan is (assuming that they both would be modifid for track)?
Let's see: Subaru WRX vs. Cayenne as a track car, or BMW M5 vs. Cayenne as a track car...
I can't help it, to me, for example, M5 sounds like a helluva better sportscar than what Cayenne does.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no intention of repeating everything I've written before as to why I think the Cayenne was a good decision. I will ask you why you think making money isn't important. We're talking about a company that was nearly bankrupt in the early 90s. Would you rather have a Porsche that builds a Cayenne, or have a Porsche that went out of business?
As to whether or not an SUV is more of a sports car than a sedan--the point is that NEITHER is a sports car, so why would you hate one more than the other?
<strong>
OK, I got it, that's why I asked if you meant that, I wasn't sure (it's me and my bad Englisgh & I'm sorry about it).
However, I'd like to know what are those very sound reasons (other than making money) for a true sportscar sompany to go to a totally different direction, and build an SUV?
And I still don't get how this, 5200 lb SUV is as much of an sportscar as sedan is (assuming that they both would be modifid for track)?
Let's see: Subaru WRX vs. Cayenne as a track car, or BMW M5 vs. Cayenne as a track car...
I can't help it, to me, for example, M5 sounds like a helluva better sportscar than what Cayenne does.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no intention of repeating everything I've written before as to why I think the Cayenne was a good decision. I will ask you why you think making money isn't important. We're talking about a company that was nearly bankrupt in the early 90s. Would you rather have a Porsche that builds a Cayenne, or have a Porsche that went out of business?
As to whether or not an SUV is more of a sports car than a sedan--the point is that NEITHER is a sports car, so why would you hate one more than the other?
11-08-2002, 12:09 AM
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MPM, I think YOU'RE the one that needs to read up on Cayenne.
The vehicle was completely designed by Porsche from the ground up, with the platform to be used by VW for the Touareg. Porsche designed the chassis platform, the suspension and the transmission, with each company to provide their own engines.
It is most definitely NOT based on a "VAG platform."
The vehicle was completely designed by Porsche from the ground up, with the platform to be used by VW for the Touareg. Porsche designed the chassis platform, the suspension and the transmission, with each company to provide their own engines.
It is most definitely NOT based on a "VAG platform."
11-08-2002, 11:48 AM
#54
Race Director
Well,
To me the Cayenne /Toureg SUV is similar to the 914 joint venture of years past. Remember the 914 4 cyl was the "VW" version in europe while the 914-6 was the Porsche version.
Honestly this history does not deminish the Porscheness of the car. How can I talk when my Porsches are the 944 anyway.
Of course that is not really the bone of contention for most of us. Most of us who feel this way can't for the life of us understand why Porsche should be in truck business. It was bad enough when the Like of Mercedes Benz and BMW got involved, but now our beloved Porsche??
The SUV does serve a very valuable role in the lives of motoritst today. Some people out there trully hate SUVs. I am not one of them since I own one and my family has owned on since 1984.
The SUV is not a Fad. It has been around for years and will continue to be around. What IS a FAD are the Luxury SUVs and CAR based SUVs.
The tasks that these people require of these vehicles can much better be served an number of other cars.
You say the Cayenne is not based on a truck platform. If so then WHY NOT. An SUV SHOULD BE BASED on TRUCK PLATFORM SINCE THAT IS WHAT IT IS!
Taking a passat and making a truck out of it is stupid. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Earlier in the week I was at a BMW dealer and got a nice look at 5 series wagaon (estate if you prefer). Wow! That was cool. More space and comfort than the X5 next to it and by being lower to the ground had Physis on it side for good handling. If Porsche made one of these I would not be upset at all.
Imagine a 4000lbs estate wagon about the size of 5 series.. AWD drive and the 450 hp Twin Turbo V8!
Why is this MUCH cooler than the P-fish????
Hmm
weighs 1000lbs less, will handle much better since the CG is MUCH lower. Will be the "fastest station wagon on the planet". Can haul 5 people in comfort. All a small air/hydraulic ride height control for better deep snow performance. Can haul plenty of gear. Properly designed it might even be able to tow 5000lbs. How fast at nordschiefe???? Methinks pretty quick! Also classic Porsche uniqueness (now that allroad is history).
Of road potental .. Hmm NADA.. but that would be just fine with 99.9% of actual use anyway.
Hmm... Sounds like a sportier version of the Audi Allroad.
That I would start saving my money for!!!!!
To me the Cayenne /Toureg SUV is similar to the 914 joint venture of years past. Remember the 914 4 cyl was the "VW" version in europe while the 914-6 was the Porsche version.
Honestly this history does not deminish the Porscheness of the car. How can I talk when my Porsches are the 944 anyway.
Of course that is not really the bone of contention for most of us. Most of us who feel this way can't for the life of us understand why Porsche should be in truck business. It was bad enough when the Like of Mercedes Benz and BMW got involved, but now our beloved Porsche??
The SUV does serve a very valuable role in the lives of motoritst today. Some people out there trully hate SUVs. I am not one of them since I own one and my family has owned on since 1984.
The SUV is not a Fad. It has been around for years and will continue to be around. What IS a FAD are the Luxury SUVs and CAR based SUVs.
The tasks that these people require of these vehicles can much better be served an number of other cars.
You say the Cayenne is not based on a truck platform. If so then WHY NOT. An SUV SHOULD BE BASED on TRUCK PLATFORM SINCE THAT IS WHAT IT IS!
Taking a passat and making a truck out of it is stupid. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Earlier in the week I was at a BMW dealer and got a nice look at 5 series wagaon (estate if you prefer). Wow! That was cool. More space and comfort than the X5 next to it and by being lower to the ground had Physis on it side for good handling. If Porsche made one of these I would not be upset at all.
Imagine a 4000lbs estate wagon about the size of 5 series.. AWD drive and the 450 hp Twin Turbo V8!
Why is this MUCH cooler than the P-fish????
Hmm
weighs 1000lbs less, will handle much better since the CG is MUCH lower. Will be the "fastest station wagon on the planet". Can haul 5 people in comfort. All a small air/hydraulic ride height control for better deep snow performance. Can haul plenty of gear. Properly designed it might even be able to tow 5000lbs. How fast at nordschiefe???? Methinks pretty quick! Also classic Porsche uniqueness (now that allroad is history).
Of road potental .. Hmm NADA.. but that would be just fine with 99.9% of actual use anyway.
Hmm... Sounds like a sportier version of the Audi Allroad.
That I would start saving my money for!!!!!
11-08-2002, 10:26 PM
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Brickster, remember we here at Rennlist do this all in the spirit of fun...
[quote]MPM, I think YOU'RE the one that needs to read up on Cayenne. The vehicle was completely designed by Porsche from the ground up <hr></blockquote>
R&T 7-2 p.46
[quote]For Porsche, this (developemnt of a new platform) was solved by sharing development costs with Volkswagon and relying on Wolfsburg for the manufacturing of the SUV platform <hr></blockquote>
Autoweek 10-28-02 p.14
[quote]The folks in Wolfsburg knew they were coming to the SUV party late...began five years ago on an all-new platform <hr></blockquote>
excellence 6-02 p.71
[quote]The new SUV, regardless of engine, will share its basic platform architecture with an upcoming SUV from Volkswagon<hr></blockquote>
Pano 7-02 p.53
[quote]...built on a Volkwagon platform...<hr></blockquote>
C&D 6-02 p.30
[quote]though it shares its struture with Volkswagon's Touareg sport-ute, it's engines are unique...<hr></blockquote>
Let me know when I should stop...
[quote]MPM, I think YOU'RE the one that needs to read up on Cayenne. The vehicle was completely designed by Porsche from the ground up <hr></blockquote>
R&T 7-2 p.46
[quote]For Porsche, this (developemnt of a new platform) was solved by sharing development costs with Volkswagon and relying on Wolfsburg for the manufacturing of the SUV platform <hr></blockquote>
Autoweek 10-28-02 p.14
[quote]The folks in Wolfsburg knew they were coming to the SUV party late...began five years ago on an all-new platform <hr></blockquote>
excellence 6-02 p.71
[quote]The new SUV, regardless of engine, will share its basic platform architecture with an upcoming SUV from Volkswagon<hr></blockquote>
Pano 7-02 p.53
[quote]...built on a Volkwagon platform...<hr></blockquote>
C&D 6-02 p.30
[quote]though it shares its struture with Volkswagon's Touareg sport-ute, it's engines are unique...<hr></blockquote>
Let me know when I should stop...
11-09-2002, 03:02 PM
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Let me know when I should stop... [/QB][/QUOTE]
You can stop as soon as you find a quote that contradicts anything I said. Read your own quotes.
(I can't believe I'm actually responding to this.)
Quote #1 says that development costs were shared between the two firms and that VW would manufacture it. It DOES NOT SAY that VW designed it, or that it was an existing VAG platform.
Quote #2 Says that VAG began work on an SUV platform. So? At what point does it say that this is the Cayenne/Touareg
Quote #3 says that the Cayenne and Touareg share platforms. Um, we already knew this. It doesn't say that VW designed it.
Quote #4 I looked this up (July 02 Panorama, p. 53) It isn't there.
Quote #5 says, again, that the two cars share platforms. It doesn't say that VW DESIGNED THE PLATFORM.
Since you like quotes, here're a couple for you:
"This is how the joint venture works. Porsche, being the superior partner in terms of engineering, essentially designed the Cayenne, Weissach drawing up the chassis platform, the height adjustable suspension, and not least the complex four-wheel-drive suspension . . ."
911 & Porsche World, October 2002, p. 75
"The Cayenne has a totally new design incorporating many impressive, pioneering technologies and not based on any previous model."
Hans-Peter Porsche in Panorama, October 2002, p.48
And if this is all in "fun" don't tell me to "read up" on something and then be surprised when I react.
[/QB][/QUOTE]You can stop as soon as you find a quote that contradicts anything I said. Read your own quotes.
(I can't believe I'm actually responding to this.)
Quote #1 says that development costs were shared between the two firms and that VW would manufacture it. It DOES NOT SAY that VW designed it, or that it was an existing VAG platform.
Quote #2 Says that VAG began work on an SUV platform. So? At what point does it say that this is the Cayenne/Touareg
Quote #3 says that the Cayenne and Touareg share platforms. Um, we already knew this. It doesn't say that VW designed it.
Quote #4 I looked this up (July 02 Panorama, p. 53) It isn't there.
Quote #5 says, again, that the two cars share platforms. It doesn't say that VW DESIGNED THE PLATFORM.
Since you like quotes, here're a couple for you:
"This is how the joint venture works. Porsche, being the superior partner in terms of engineering, essentially designed the Cayenne, Weissach drawing up the chassis platform, the height adjustable suspension, and not least the complex four-wheel-drive suspension . . ."
911 & Porsche World, October 2002, p. 75
"The Cayenne has a totally new design incorporating many impressive, pioneering technologies and not based on any previous model."
Hans-Peter Porsche in Panorama, October 2002, p.48
And if this is all in "fun" don't tell me to "read up" on something and then be surprised when I react.
11-09-2002, 03:39 PM
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Brickster your emotions are going to get the better of you, lighten up a little...
[quote]The vehicle was completely designed by Porsche from the ground up, with the platform to be used by VW for the Touareg. Porsche designed the chassis platform, the suspension and the transmission, with each company to provide their own engines.<hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but you are not correct. Furthermore, my original point was this is a new SUV platform (not a car platform) built (should have said constructed) by VAG - with Porsche money. I never said that PAG didn't help in the engineering, but VAG welds it together( no doubt there are Porsche guys at the VAG plant when they screw the platform together), puts on the body panals - and ships it to Leipzig. And if I wasn't clear, perhaps now you understand my point.
You orignally started us down this path by debating the car platform based X5 and Acura/Lexus comparisons. I was just retorting that it was an SUV (truck) platform.
More from C&D...
[quote]Under the deal, struck in 1998, Porsche and Volkswagen jointly set the hard points of the platform, VW engineered details such as the electrical architecture, and each company did its own engines, styling, and chassis tuning. VW supplies Porsche's new $124 million glass-walled Cayenne assembly plant in Leipzig with painted bodies, and suppliers ship in about a dozen preassembled modules. Only 20 percent of the Cayenne, mainly the new 335-hp, 4.5-liter DOHC V-8 and its 444-hp twin-turbo variant, is in fact built by Porsche. <hr></blockquote>
[quote]The vehicle was completely designed by Porsche from the ground up, with the platform to be used by VW for the Touareg. Porsche designed the chassis platform, the suspension and the transmission, with each company to provide their own engines.<hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but you are not correct. Furthermore, my original point was this is a new SUV platform (not a car platform) built (should have said constructed) by VAG - with Porsche money. I never said that PAG didn't help in the engineering, but VAG welds it together( no doubt there are Porsche guys at the VAG plant when they screw the platform together), puts on the body panals - and ships it to Leipzig. And if I wasn't clear, perhaps now you understand my point.
You orignally started us down this path by debating the car platform based X5 and Acura/Lexus comparisons. I was just retorting that it was an SUV (truck) platform.
More from C&D...
[quote]Under the deal, struck in 1998, Porsche and Volkswagen jointly set the hard points of the platform, VW engineered details such as the electrical architecture, and each company did its own engines, styling, and chassis tuning. VW supplies Porsche's new $124 million glass-walled Cayenne assembly plant in Leipzig with painted bodies, and suppliers ship in about a dozen preassembled modules. Only 20 percent of the Cayenne, mainly the new 335-hp, 4.5-liter DOHC V-8 and its 444-hp twin-turbo variant, is in fact built by Porsche. <hr></blockquote>
11-09-2002, 06:05 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>Brickster your emotions are going to get the better of you, lighten up a little...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know if you can't read, or if you're just pulling my leg. YOU SAID:
"Sorry, Brickster but read up on what is basically a VAG truck platform (financed in a large part with PAG DMs)."
If you're now trying to say "built by VAG," we don't have a dispute about that, so I don't understand quoting sources (or making them up) that say VW builds the platform. That's totally beside the point. What I said (and what you contested) was that Porsche designed the platform. Nothing you've quoted contradicts that.
Incidentally, if I'm wrong, then 911 & Porsche World, Peter Porsche and Pano are wrong too. I didn't invent my quotes.
In any case, you only half know what you're talking about, and I'm through arguing. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
<strong>Brickster your emotions are going to get the better of you, lighten up a little...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know if you can't read, or if you're just pulling my leg. YOU SAID:
"Sorry, Brickster but read up on what is basically a VAG truck platform (financed in a large part with PAG DMs)."
If you're now trying to say "built by VAG," we don't have a dispute about that, so I don't understand quoting sources (or making them up) that say VW builds the platform. That's totally beside the point. What I said (and what you contested) was that Porsche designed the platform. Nothing you've quoted contradicts that.
Incidentally, if I'm wrong, then 911 & Porsche World, Peter Porsche and Pano are wrong too. I didn't invent my quotes.In any case, you only half know what you're talking about, and I'm through arguing. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
11-09-2002, 06:50 PM
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Most of my post are of the cynical variety...due mostly to my cynical view of the need to go the direction of the P-fish.
Not that it really matters, but where do you see that it is a Porsche designed the platform? And I checked again on the Pano quote, blew that one <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> , too many beers last night. But the others are correct - and they seem to point to a VAG designed platform. That's why I said it was "basically" a VAG platform.
Whatever, your support of this new direction for Porsche is well noted. Look forward to debating your infallible position...
Not that it really matters, but where do you see that it is a Porsche designed the platform? And I checked again on the Pano quote, blew that one <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> , too many beers last night. But the others are correct - and they seem to point to a VAG designed platform. That's why I said it was "basically" a VAG platform.
Whatever, your support of this new direction for Porsche is well noted. Look forward to debating your infallible position...
11-09-2002, 07:44 PM
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It's great getting all these references for in-depth C research, thanks.
One point, though, for those not following Porsche for decades... Maybe it is a suprise that Porsche only supplies 20% of the end product content. I assure you, Porsche has NEVER scratch-built their production models - always doing a great deal of outsourcing; from the 356 (VW parts) through the present (Boxsters assembled in Finland from supplier components, most NOT from Stuttgart). They carefully spec & inspect incoming material then set strict production tolerances and QC check & test the results.
I think Christian Stewart's posts about PAG, the role of racing & the nature of the auto industry in the 21st century have been quite cogent. He seems to be able to distinguish his enthusiasm (& criticism) for Porsche from objective analysis.
Sports Cars aren't what they used to be, Racing isn't what it used to be, PAG isn't what it used to be (Founder's GRANDSON is retiring from the auto industry, kids). But Porsche still seems to turn out some very desirable product while defending its independence. As to the C, I hope we are close to the moment for all of us to quit pontificating (and talking past one another), check it out in person (or not - it's a free country), and review the retail sales #s when they start to roll in.
I recently read all the noise going on in the Boxster forum ("girl's car", blablabla) and I am beginning to wonder if the primary attribute that many rennlist posters have in common is insecurity, defensiveness & the inability to take Yes! for an answer.
If you have a Porsche you like, who cares what anyone else thinks?
One point, though, for those not following Porsche for decades... Maybe it is a suprise that Porsche only supplies 20% of the end product content. I assure you, Porsche has NEVER scratch-built their production models - always doing a great deal of outsourcing; from the 356 (VW parts) through the present (Boxsters assembled in Finland from supplier components, most NOT from Stuttgart). They carefully spec & inspect incoming material then set strict production tolerances and QC check & test the results.
I think Christian Stewart's posts about PAG, the role of racing & the nature of the auto industry in the 21st century have been quite cogent. He seems to be able to distinguish his enthusiasm (& criticism) for Porsche from objective analysis.
Sports Cars aren't what they used to be, Racing isn't what it used to be, PAG isn't what it used to be (Founder's GRANDSON is retiring from the auto industry, kids). But Porsche still seems to turn out some very desirable product while defending its independence. As to the C, I hope we are close to the moment for all of us to quit pontificating (and talking past one another), check it out in person (or not - it's a free country), and review the retail sales #s when they start to roll in.
I recently read all the noise going on in the Boxster forum ("girl's car", blablabla) and I am beginning to wonder if the primary attribute that many rennlist posters have in common is insecurity, defensiveness & the inability to take Yes! for an answer.
If you have a Porsche you like, who cares what anyone else thinks?