M758

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>
"Oh, I know, I know grandpa! Our neigbor's minivan is Porsche"
"Grandpa, why you're turnig all red?, calm down, what's wrong?"

</strong><hr></blockquote>


<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
I am 100% with you FF!

My father had a 912 back in the late 60's and he would tell me stories about tapeing up the lights and tracking the car at Lime Rock.

For years growing up I though those days were gone and those wer just stories of "my old man".

Well now that we have gotten back in to Porsche we realize that the Legend Lives... Porsche is great and Pure.... At least until now!

Lets hope your dream stays a nightmare only!

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin M.:
<strong>
. . . don't you think its time to let go of the past and move on with the future as Porsche is doing...
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Right on.

BTW, my unscientific observation is that the people most upset about the Cayenne are younger. Those of us old enough to have been around when so-called Porschephiles said the same thing about every other new direction they've taken . . . <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>


<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
I am 100% with you FF!

My father had a 912 back in the late 60's and he would tell me stories about tapeing up the lights and tracking the car at Lime Rock.

For years growing up I though those days were gone and those wer just stories of "my old man".

Well now that we have gotten back in to Porsche we realize that the Legend Lives... Porsche is great and Pure.... At least until now!

Lets hope your dream stays a nightmare only!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks!

I guess all of our parent's have those 'good old days' stories that we used to laugh about and soon/now we start telling our own 'good old days' stories...

Guys,

I have no problem with future & I like changes, but I don't like changes just because something is changing.
If the change is good, then it's good thing but if the change is bad, it's not a good thing just because something gets changed.
For example if Porsche changed 911's engines to some ultra modern, ceramic 1.8 in-line four with 200 hp, that would be a change but I'd really have trouble with it.
Even more that Cayenne and then you guys would really have to hear (read) about my whining loud!

993RS

Brickerson,
Not true about older drivers showing more acceptance. I am in my 50's and I think just like FF does. I have been exposed to Porsches since the age of 10 (my Dad had a Porsche dealership in Bakersfield). I have seen all the models come and go, but the Cayenne is the first non-sports car to come up and I really don't like this direction at all. Porsche has always been synonymous with "sports car" and now somebody can say, "I have a Porsche..." and mean a Cayenne! I could not imagine a Ferrari SUV for example!

Harold

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>

Thanks Phil,

I guess you're right, Porsche isn't what it used to be and it will be even less as the time passes by. OK, I just have to accept that & stop complaining about it (sigh)

I'm sure when I'm showing my 993 to my grand kids & giving them joyrides I'll be talking their ears off how great Porsche was when grandpa's car rolled out of the factory.

"Ah kids, those were the good old days, grandpa used to watch Le Mans and cheer for Porsche! They were the real sports car company! Grandpa used to take this 993 to the track too!"

"Oh, I know, I know grandpa! Our neigbor's minivan is Porsche"
"Grandpa, why you're turnig all red?, calm down, what's wrong?"

"Grandma! Get here quick! Grandpa is all red and looking angry, what wrong with him?"

"Oh, you goofy old man, were you telling those Porsche stories again?! Let's go inside and give Grandpa a beer & show him those all videos. Calm down honey, let's go driving tomorrow, ok?"

"Ok dear, let's do that. Where are my glasses? I need to wipe those kids' fingerprints off from the hood before I go" </strong><hr></blockquote>

Flying Finn...

on the positive side, that nice German beer you get might also be brewed by Porsche, and heck, those glasses that you'll wear to polish that car will be Porsche Design!!!!!

Flying Finn

Harold,

I can taste the beer already... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

M758

Ok,
I am part of the youger crowd (28, but I am also a Fuction over Form guy and purist.

SUV's have purpose to play in the Automotive world. Saldy 90% of SUV sold for the past 10 years have not be used for that Purpose.

First Mercedes Benz developed their M-Class. Then BMW developed their X5, Now Porsche has the Cayenne.

All of these vehicles as well as other SUVs (eg Toyota Rav 4, Honda CR-V, Subrau Forester, Cadillac Escalde, Lincoln Navigator, Ford Escape) don't serve any purpose that another type of car or truck could do much better. To me these are all for Appearance, Feel, and "Commanding Seating Position Crap"

SUV's do have purpose in this world. That purpose is not haul the kids around. They are not to replace luxury sedans.
Everytime I see an X5 it makes me sick. Here is BMW the "Ultimate Driving Machine" making a truck that by is basic design requirments is big heavy slow and can't handle worth crap and try to force in to sports wagon. BMW has a much better vechicle in there 5 series wagon than in the X5.
It just makes me sick!

People say they want a truck, but 85% of them will be happier with a station wagon. But don't dare call it a station wagon 'cuse that is not cool. It has to LOOK like it is 4 feet off the ground, but have car like handling and a low steep in height... Sheesh Sounld more a like a station wagon to me.. Oh there goes that word again!

Dang it people why are the American People so stupid to be caught up the SUV FASHION TREND. I just can't understand it.

And not worst of all Porsche. The sport car manufacturer and builder of some of the best racing cars in the world has deciced to build a jacked-up station wagon truck. They proclaim it is real Porsche since it will do 160 mph on the Autobahn! Why does anyone need a 160 mph TRUCK. Sure nobody needs a 200 mph Ruf Turbo R, but a TRUCK????? I just don't get it????
For years Porsche has built cars with the form following directly from their fucntion. The function of Porsche car was to fun fast sporting drivers on the road. Honestly Porsches are not prettying form alone. Their beauty comes from the realization that the car looks the way it does because that is best way to achieve goal of a Porsche car. Again form follows from the fuction.

Now Porsche has deciced to start with Form (the Tall boxy SUV) and try to make a sports car from it. How STUPID do they think we are. Honestly I would be less iritated if they made the Cayenne into a Hard Core off road truck like OLD Jeeps, Land Crusiers or Land Rovers. Instead all they talk about how is faster around the Nordschiefe than a stock 996! Why does that matter for a Truck? Tell me runs tough off-road trails, races in the desert or Tows 15,000lbs. Then I will be impressed. Then I will know the Porsche is building a truck for a Purpose.

That is why I am so pissed off about this and the more I see the more irritated I get.

... well I guess I am done now....

j959

live on the cayenne....for within that cayenne is my golden treasure.....

somebody crash one so i can put it into my next project


cayenne is a step foward....it opens porsches mind to new ways, better alternatives....

porsche is evolving....changing for the better....lets just hope they can start making the bodies lower and wider....i dont like practical dimensions

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by 993RS:
<strong>Brickerson,
Not true about older drivers showing more acceptance. I am in my 50's and I think just like FF does. I have been exposed to Porsches since the age of 10 (my Dad had a Porsche dealership in Bakersfield). I have seen all the models come and go, but the Cayenne is the first non-sports car to come up and I really don't like this direction at all. Porsche has always been synonymous with "sports car" and now somebody can say, "I have a Porsche..." and mean a Cayenne! I could not imagine a Ferrari SUV for example!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I did say it was unscientific. And it should be a given that it isn't universal. But, I'm 41, have been around one Porsche (my dad wasn't lucky enough to own a dealership) since I was 7. And I know that EVERY new Porsche model was criticized by the faithful for something that made it "not a Porsche." The 911 and 928 were too "luxurious" and too much of a "GT." The 914 and 924 were Volkswagens. The 944 wasn't built in Stuttgart. The 996 and Boxster are water-cooled. And on. In my opinion, the "purists" have shown themselves to be wrong in every case.

And given your age and enthusiasm, I'm sure you know that Porsche has been looking at alternatives to two-seat cars since its inception. The 356 was a rear-engined instead of mid-engined car (as the prototype) specifically to allow for a back seat. Design studies for a four-seat 911 go back to the mid-sixties, and continue up to the so-called 989 in the 90s.

If Porsche has proven one thing, it's that a sports car isn't about where the engine is, how it's cooled, where the car's made, or how many seats and doors it has. It's about what it DOES.

Now, it has been my experience that the people who take these things into account when looking at the Cayenne tend to be older. But, it was just an observation.

BR

BTW, Ferrari doesn't make an SUV because it doesn't have to. It has, however, made full-four seaters, two-door sedans, for all intents and purposes. And Lamborghini's SUV doesn't seem to have hurt their image any.

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by j959:
<strong>live on the cayenne....for within that cayenne is my golden treasure.....

somebody crash one so i can put it into my next project


cayenne is a step foward....it opens porsches mind to new ways, better alternatives....

porsche is evolving....changing for the better....lets just hope they can start making the bodies lower and wider....i dont like practical dimensions</strong><hr></blockquote>

Man, I don't know what you're using, but please stop, it can't be healthy?

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
[QB]...BTW, Ferrari doesn't make an SUV because it doesn't have to...QB]<hr></blockquote>

And Porsche does? Why? Because they've made tons of money?

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
[QB]...It has, however, made full-four seaters, two-door sedans, for all intents and purposes...QB]<hr></blockquote>

Oh man, if this was the case with Porsche (and they'd have factory racing also), things would look much, much better.

Kevin M.

As for those who believe Porsche doesn’t belong in the truck business, design boss Lagaay says, “Every new Porsche model has been faced with doubters telling us what a Porsche should be. Cayenne is just the start of a very long story. We have a big factory and the possibilities are huge

<a href="http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&loc_code=index&conten t_code=03900960" target="_blank">Autoweeks first drive of the Cayenne</a>

Opinions are like ********, everyone has one!

Didn't mean to get personal in the talk but the constant negativity from people that don't like there cars manufacture gets annoying. Here's another thought....so now all these people who have never though about buying a Porsche before go out and buy the Cayenne cause there in the market for a SUV, they drive they love it, then they think wow if they can make a SUV like this what are there sports cars like.... honey look what I bought for you a shiny new red boxster, and oh look I sold my corvette and bought the new Carrera coupe.. Hmmm more $$$ for Porsche, hence they grow bigger and better... oops no we don't want that, we want they to say small. The other thing I don't understand, is a lot of you say someone who is buying that Cayenne is badge happy and has to have the Porsche name, well hello, why didn't you guys buy a Corvette or a Mustang, or something else that was $30k less? Most of us are fortunate to be able to own these cars, we work hard and earn a decent living, and its obvious that name recognition has a little to do with this, so be happy for the mom down the street who says she loves here Pepper Porsche, don't turn your back and laugh at her, cause who knows she might do the same to you, except her comment would be like, " he needs that shiny red car to make up for his short comings" Be happy guys were here for a short while, Porsche has been around and will be around a lot longer then you and I.

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>

And Porsche does? Why? Because they've made tons of money?

Oh man, if this was the case with Porsche (and they'd have factory racing also), things would look much, much better.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. Throughout Porsche's history, the sports car market has proven to be cyclical. Just because they're making tons of money now, doesn't mean they always will. They were doing fine throughout the 80s, and almost went bankrupt in the 90s. The idea behind they Cayenne is two-fold: Capture the apparently large numbers of Porsche owners who have a second vehicle; and produce a vehicle that is somewhat more practical for people whose only car is a Porsche.

2. A SEDAN? You think this is any more in line with Porsche's heritage than an SUV? That makes no sense at all. If you hate one, you should just as readily hate the other.

mpm '95 C4

What a great thread...

[quote]"Grandpa, why you're turning all red?, calm down, what's wrong?" <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> Why am I picturing Dana Carvey doing his Grumpy Old Man SNL character?


[quote]People say they want a truck, but 85% of them will be happier with a station wagon. But don't dare call it a station wagon 'cuse that is not cool. <hr></blockquote>
Umm, M758, we prefer to use the term "estate" - sounds a little classier

[quote]Im really sick of your constant bashing of the company for the making of this SUV, seriously you should be now ashamed of even driving a Porsche because they are trying to earn a profit... please sell your 993 ASAP, and stop wining about the Cayenne! <hr></blockquote>

Watch it there KevinM, <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> welcome to Rennlist, but getting personal with our man Finn is not a great way to introduce yourself to the board. Finn has been consistent in his POV - read some of his post from the beginning. BTW to many of us, this has nothing to do with making money, staying small, or remaining independent - it's about a sports car company loosing its focus - perhaps permanently. We care deeply about this.

[quote]The other thing I don't understand, is a lot of you say someone who is buying that Cayenne is badge happy and has to have the Porsche name, well hello, why didn't you guys buy a Corvette or a Mustang, or something else that was $30k less? <hr></blockquote>

KevinM, Because they don't drive like a Porsche, if they did (or if they do someday) I would consider one - especially now that Porsche wants to be just another car company.

[quote]BTW, my unscientific observation is that the people most upset about the Cayenne are younger. <hr></blockquote>

Brickerson, I'm 42 and have no problem with the Boxster or the 996 (other then the cheap interiors of the early cars and the sheet metal on the 996 lost its artistic flair), but the turbo and the C4S are headed in the right direction - and it would appear the 997 will go 993 retro. But your right there has been a lot of bitching over the years - except when the 993 debuted. Oh, and I'm not only upset that Porsche is making an SUV - it's also because it looks to be one homely SUV.

[quote]A SEDAN? You think this is any more in line with Porsche's heritage than an SUV? That makes no sense at all. If you hate one, you should just as readily hate the other. <hr></blockquote>

Brickerson, if Porsche "has" to make a leisure vehicle (so they tell us) I would have actually preferred a killer estate - and yes that would have been much more in line with their heritage.

Have a great day <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

exc911ence

I'm against the Cayenne but not because I think that Porsche should stick to sports cars. I feel that the SUV is a passing fad that grew in popularity only because the yuppies enjoy tasting the flavour-of-the-week. Like the muscle cars of the 70's, I can see an end for luxo-SUV's due to escalating fuel and insurance costs and (hopefully) the resurgence of good taste. Porsche was THE yuppie marque in the 80's and that soured many Porschephiles for a long time. Well, what comes around, goes around and it seems that the purists are up-in-arms again for exactly the same reason. I'd like people to see me in my Porsches and think "there goes a person who really appreciates his sports cars", not, "there goes another yuppie with more money than brains". I suppose I'm lucky that, being that my cars are so old, they'll just say, "there goes a guy who can't afford a new car"...