mpm '95 C4

YES! You are CORRECT sir...
(ummm, think Ed McMann)

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>...I will ask you why you think making money isn't important...</strong><hr></blockquote>

When did I say that money making isn't important? It's the way you're making it.
I'm afraid Porsche is too focused on making money and losing it's focus on building great sports cars.
And by dumping high level racing, they're losing (or lost already?) great platform to 'teach' their engineers. And then they don't have that platform to get all those innovations you can't get anywhere alse but from racing?
And when you don't get those anymore & consentrate more getting nice cupholders & all other crappy stuff that doesn't belong in a sports car, you'll end up with cars that are not Porsche, even if the badge says so. And for me, that's not enough.

There still might be a Porsche around 100 years from now, but what kind of Porsche is that?

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>...As to whether or not an SUV is more of a sports car than a sedan--the point is that NEITHER is a sports car, so why would you hate one more than the other?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh please.

For example, I would defenately hate a Porsche lawn mover or 18 wheeler even more than I 'hate' Cayenne.

Adrian

Guys,
This is for the new people. What I am about to write is all in the archives. Most of these discussions are really bouncing around with semantics. Here are the cold hard facts of the origins of the Porsche Cayenne.
1/. PAG totally engineered the Cayennne and Toureg. This was their price of joining the project after Mercedes to PAG in 1996 that they did not want PAG as a partner.
2/. The basic platform from which the chassis was engineering (which included a lot of redesign) was the VW Caravelle.
3/. All Cayennes and Touregs are built in the VW factory in Slovakia. They are shipped by train to Leipzig where they are Porscherised and the engine is installed.
When people from the two companies speak (VW and PAG) they tend to speak of their involvement from their perspective. Porsche did as I said design the whole platform. They just omit to tell people that there were some basic ground rules applied by VW at the very beginning. This project always has been and will always be a VW project.
Now for those who believe that Porsche has sold out please remember that Porsche AG built their first AWD in 1954. I do not include anything before the establishment of the manufacturing company Porsche AG in 1948 by Ferry and Louise Porsche in any of my references. Ferdinand Porsches´company 1931-45 was a design company not a manufacturer.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: Porsche also designed a nifty AWD missile launcher which was delivered to the German Army circa 1995.
PSS: I watched a road and off-road test in Germany with the Cayenne on Saturday. Walter Röhrl was driving. He seemed quite impressed. If it performs as it did on the assualt course it might actually be quite a good off road vehicle. Everybody by the way criticises the price. Especially the Turbo. Most Germans are waiting for diesel version.

Christian S.

Kevin, kind words - although I'm never quite sure how cogent my thoughts, let alone posts are!

The whole Cayenne debate has been fascinating, although we do seem to be getting into the "scratched record" syndrome of going round and round with the same arguments now. That's perhaps inevitable considering the length of the marketing campaign and the inability to actually drive the darn thing ourselves.

I've always had a complete fascination with anything with wheels - two, four, eight - no limit really (never quite mastered a unicycle <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> ). For that reason alone, I will test drive a Cayenne with pleasure.

I think the styling has been a missed opportunity and for that their experience with the 928 is probably to blame.

The concept of the car doesn't bother me - I don't find SUV's the devil's spawn - indeed my odd combination of living in the wilds of Scotland, driving a huge mileage for one business and also having another farming business makes me one of the few who might use a good SUV's abilities to the full.

I also have no problem with Porsche as a company making any vehicle of any class, size or concept. I continue to hope that I'll judge each car on it's own merits and not other models or the company's / marque's supposed traditional market segment. As long as the vehicle is good and I have some form of need for that type of car - I'll consider it on it's own four wheels (most likely they'll keep to that format for the moment.....).

The rest is down to the performance of the car itself - and for that a few more months wait remains I'm afraid....

As a sort of final postscript I'll throw in my crystal ball gazing for the next ten years.

997 will hark back to the 993 but will still be class leading and up to date and will show that Porsche has at least one ear open to it's hardcore fans.

"New" 911 will be even better.

Boxster will continue to be the class leading entry to Porsche ownership and will establish itself as a "permament" long term model in the same vein as the 911

Cayenne will be a success - mainly down to it's ability, but will swiftly be given a makeover to sort out the styling. Variations on a theme - mainly with engines will guarantee it's success in different markets.

The Carrera GT will not be repeated - it will be a disappointment alongside the Enzo etc - unless a suitable racing reason for producing a homologation vehicle is required.

The much fabled "fourth" Porsche will appear - perhaps a front engined competitor to the 575 or Vanquish - four seats and continental crushing ability in a package designed to succeed where the 928 didn't (don't get me wrong I loved it)

And as for racing...... apart from 997 GT success it will all be down to the "Formula" of GT racing allowing Porsche to race and win rather than the other way round. At the moment it's a no-brainer.

All in all I can't help thinking that Porsche hasn't been in better shape ever - or maybe I'm too much of a "glass half full" type of guy....

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
<strong>we do seem to be getting into the "scratched record" syndrome of going round and round with the same arguments now...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah by the time this thing gets here I might actually like it...Nah

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>

Oh please.

For example, I would defenately hate a Porsche lawn mover or 18 wheeler even more than I 'hate' Cayenne.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So . . . you would rant and post messages on a Porsche lawnmower board? Would you have complained about the tractor?

What happened to just not buying one and letting it go at that?

ked

Now, don't be maken' fun uh the Porsche Tractor Forum, ya hear?

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>

So . . . you would rant and post messages on a Porsche lawnmower board? Would you have complained about the tractor?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Of course I'd rant about Porsche lawn mover! You wouldn't?!

I'd rant because it would be something that I think will make my beloved car company turn (from great sports car company) to trash. Especially if they'd be doing them in a time when they've lost their focus on racing & their other products are becoming softer (cupholders etc.).

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>What happened to just not buying one and letting it go at that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

See above the reason(s).

BTW, I assume you have ordered a Cayenne?
Because otherwise are you defending it?

PaulK

How about some other new models to go along with the Cayenne? check this site: should give you some relief from your dispair (WARNING: it does mention the Cayenne so be careful. Don't break your monitor when you see it.)

<a href="http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/porsche/id503/pg2431" target="_blank">http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/porsche/id503/pg2431</a>

ked

[quote]For that reason alone, I will test drive a Cayenne with pleasure.

The Carrera GT will be a disappointment alongside the Enzo etc.

- or maybe I'm too much of a "glass half full" type of guy....<hr></blockquote>

allow me to elucidate on these points...

a) what a unique pov - test driving w/ pleasure & no preordained bias.

b) not so sure, try this thought experiment...
"the GT is to the Enzo as the 917 was to the 512"
...for the serious user (amongst the very wealthy), the GT will outpoint the Enzo... unless I can get a reliable modern iteration of the P2/3-P3/4, I'm w/ Porsche.

c) finish off that glass & pour another one...
cheers.

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>
BTW, I assume you have ordered a Cayenne?
Because otherwise are you defending it?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nope. Don't need it. Don't have a family, dog, or track car to pull. I do like it though, that's why I read this board. As Porsche usually does, they've brought a unique approach to a fairly generic idea. Porsche Traction Managment sounds fantastic, the new V-8 is stunningly compact, and I can't wait to see the Cayenne Targa.

If you're really a Porsche enthusiast, you recognize that they're first and foremost the world's best automotive engineering firm, and the Cayenne looks to be more proof of that. Conceptually, I don't see it as being that far away from the 928. I can't imagine a reason in the world why anybody would care that it has four doors. As I've said, I think the main reason people hate the Cayenne is because they somehow think it reflects on them as Porsche drivers, i.e., they don't want anybody to think they drive an SUV when they say "I drive a Porsche." This, of course, is ridiculous, and those people are poseurs.

I don't think that anyone can claim that the Cayenne has caused Porsche to lose its focus on sports cars after they read about the Carrera GT. Porsche's stated goal was to make it better than the Enzo. I've yet to see them say something like that and not do it.

As far as racing is concerned, again, they're on public record as saying they will return "in a big way." So they missed a couple of deadlines. Porsche is a company that is very aware of how it is perceived publicly, and I'm quite sure they'll be racing soon enough.

Meanwhile, you have an extremely profitable, independent company that makes exceptional products that the acquisition of which is at least within striking distance of a lot of people.

Not a bad deal, I'd say.

BTW, I sincerely doubt whether I'd rant about a Porsche lawnmower. After all, they did make a tractor. But I know I wouldn't go to the "Porsche Lawnmower Board" and bitch and moan.

In other words . . .

Flying Finn

I got your point and I have to repeat that my 'rant' is not only because of the Cayenne.

I do not like it & I think it should have never been built but my 'angryness' is coming more from overall believe of their direction (cars becoming more luxury than sport, cupholders & other nonsence stuff that has no place in sports cars, building a car that's in a class that it's amost as far away from thier main class as it can be, not 'big time' racing efforts etc. Well, you get the picture), not just this truck.

Carrera GT sounds truly a supercar & I'm glad to see it coming! (why they don't plan to do a race model, is again, IMO, wrong move) and if they stand behind their words & start racing as they used to do, I will be quiet.
Well, maybe not quiet, but cheering for them at & their efforts in le Mans! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

As for lawnmover... Nah, we won't go there!

993RS

FF has just been stating that a company famous for sports cars should stick to building sports cars. Saying "Porsche" evokes the image of a sports car. Soon the name will be fuzzied by a (yuk) SUV. So maybe some day they might even start to build a small car with modest hp to compete with the VW Rabbit (Golf in Europe). Once a company loses its focus, it can go downhill fast. OK, it might be making money (that apparently is all that counts nowadays), but it will have lost its iconic image. Image Harley Davidson building small little mopeds and scooters...
FF, please hand be one of your barf bags... <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Flying Finn

Phil,

This is exactly what I'm afraid of.

Seems to me that many people are blinded by this 'we need to make money, more money' that they can't see what might be ahead...

And then, like my father some times says:

"when the **** is in your pants, it's too late to complain about it..."

Christian S.

Finn, I entirely respect your view - especially the consistency of it - but to use what is probably a brit phrase, "the proof is in the pudding".

Now before you start making pudding jibes about the Cayenne's styling, my meaning is that from what I have read, you are worried about the forthcoming quality or standard of Porsche products being sub-standard because of the distraction/diversion of the Cayenne.

I honestly believe that the forthcoming models will allay your worst fears. Sure we can always question what might have been should the Cayenne project never have taken place - but that argument can work both ways. From the leaked info, it looks like the next five years are going to be pretty strong and IMHO the current lineup isn't especially weak.....

So to my mind that only leaves the racing programmes and their current lack of prototype entry - you already know my views if the likeleyhood of that - but to tackle the problem in a positive way lets think about how they ought to approach it in a more detailed manner.

Current Le Mans rules are requiring a power drop via smaller air-restrictors next year followed by a possible increase again the following year when new aerodynamic rules and safety measures are introduced. LMP900 and LMP675 classes are to be renamed LMP1 and LMP2 with the minimum weight for the latter raised to 750kg to ensure that the classes are not competing against each other (Autosport Nov 7th).

Is this enough to entice the big names back? Should Rennlist be campaigning for a 2004 return? Shouldn't the views of Rennlist be politely but firmly directed to the Chairmans attention? Or are there other changes that forum menbers feel need to be incorporated into the Le Mans series before it is worthy of a Porsche Prototype factory and customer return?