Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>

1. Throughout Porsche's history, the sports car market has proven to be cyclical. Just because they're making tons of money now, doesn't mean they always will. They were doing fine throughout the 80s, and almost went bankrupt in the 90s. The idea behind they Cayenne is two-fold: Capture the apparently large numbers of Porsche owners who have a second vehicle; and produce a vehicle that is somewhat more practical for people whose only car is a Porsche...</strong><hr></blockquote>

$100+ SUV will take them through hard times? I'm sure when there's heavy recession, people aren't lining up, buying these...

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>...2. A SEDAN? You think this is any more in line with Porsche's heritage than an SUV? That makes no sense at all. If you hate one, you should just as readily hate the other.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't jump up and down for happines if they'd build sport sedan (not just any whimpy sedan, but fast, sports sedan) but yes,
that would be a lot closer to their spots car heritage than this luxury SUV is.

Flying Finn

" <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> Why am I picturing Dana Carvey doing his Grumpy Old Man SNL character?"

Man, now you got me scared!

"...Watch it there KevinM, welcome to Rennlist, getting personal with our man Finn is not a great way to introduce yourself to the board. Finn has been consistent in his POV - read some of his post from the beginning. BTW to many of us, this has nothing to do with making money, staying small, or remaining independent - it's about a sports car company loosing its focus - perhaps permanently. We care deeply about this..."

Thank you mpm!
I agree, this is about losing focus, not staying small or making money etc.

Jaxon

I've owned an SUV for ten years. Great for the kids, and great for picking up and carrying parts for my Porsche. Have no plans to buy a Cayenne. I hope Porsche sells a million of them.

I find it interesting that there is such an uproar over the Cayenne.

Let's see, the 924, 914, 944, 951, 928, 968, Boxster, and now the Cayenne are not worthy of the Porsche name? Hell, I never knew it but the VW bug I used to drive was as much a Porsche as any car I've ever driven. Take a look at an old bug and a 356 next to each other.

Porsche has to make money and stay independent. Otherwise, it can't control its own destiny.

What did a 911 cost ten years ago? Given inflation, what should it cost today? About the price of a GT2 or Twin Turbo. So the equivalent of yesterday's 911 in dollars is the GT2 and the Twin Turbo. How many of us own those two cars? How much are these two cars? How many can Porsche sell? They aren't far enough ahead in the technology curve to sell a lot of these cars at that price. Could they continue to be at the forefront of engineering technology with the revenues from the GT2 and Twin Turbo alone? I have to believe that at the Prototype racing level, money and leadership are the key. Money to hire the best engineers, the best drivers, to put the best team together. Audi has more money, BMW has more money. Porsche needs more money to win at LeMans.

Just one man's opinion!

M758

[quote]BTW to many of us, this has nothing to do with making money, staying small, or remaining independent - it's about a sports car company loosing its focus - perhaps permanently. We care deeply about this. <hr></blockquote>

MPM... Very Well said!

brickerson

Flying Finn, I know you hate the Cayenne, but try and follow the reasoning. (You can still hate it, you know.)

1. Porsche is attempting to focus on high-margin product.
2. Higher volume, lower-margin product is subject to the vicissitudes of the global economy. This is why Boxster sales have been more dramatically affected than 996 sales over the last year.
3. If you look at 911 sales over the model history, they've pretty much maxed out at around 25K units a year.

Under these conditions, is it really that hard to picture the following scenario: Rich person with family has 100K to spend on a car. He likes Porsche, but he doesn't want to appear too ostentatious in a Speed Yellow Turbo, or a triple-black C4S. Two cars are out of the question. Why wouldn't he buy a Cayenne?

Porsche, knowing that they're only going to sell a fixed number of 'sports cars', knowing that high-margin vehicles have been their meal ticket, and knowing that our fictional rich guy WANTS a Porsche, why wouldn't they build a vehicle for him?

And please explain to me exactly why a station wagon or a sedan is more in line with they're 'sporting heritage?' That's ridiculous.

mpm '95 C4

[quote]...is it really that hard to picture the following scenario: Rich person with family has 100K to spend on a car. He likes Porsche, but he doesn't want to appear too ostentatious in a Speed Yellow Turbo, or a triple-black C4S. Two cars are out of the question. Why wouldn't he buy a Cayenne?<hr></blockquote>

Hey, Porsche has found another one fitting the perfect buyer profile

But really, think about what you said $100 K for a car budget, but 2 cars are out of the question? For $100K I could have a sweet 993TT and a brand new T-egg (or countless other SUVs, estates, sedans etc) to do my daily bidding. And wouldn't a $100K SUV fit the definition of "ostentatious"?

[quote]And please explain to me exactly why a station wagon or a sedan is more in line with they're 'sporting heritage?' That's ridiculous.<hr></blockquote>

How 'bout because it based off a car platform, not a truck platform - and therefore could offer more lower mass/center of gravity sports car charateristics. And is it anywhere near as far fetched as an SUV fitting its heritage?

Flying Finn

brickerson,

mpm pretty much summed it up!

Those were exactly my thoughts.

PaulK

Guys:

I started this thread asking why the Cayenne was a bad strategy. I have the answer from a business point of view.

I read last night in the UK magazine, 911 and Porsche World, that the Cayenne has a production rate (already started) of about 25,000 per year. According to the article, which is a good one, Porsche has over 88,000 signed orders/deposits. That's almost 4 years worth. So, looks like a good strategy to me.


<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

993RS

Good old FF sticking to his guns! I agree with FF and would add that if I were offered a Cayenne for free as a second car, but under the condition that I could not sell and had to drive it at least a couple of times a week, I would not accept it. Life is just too short!

Flying Finn

Yep Phil, I'm not quitting! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Thanks to you , mpm & some others, I'm not the only one!

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>

How 'bout because it based off a car platform, not a truck platform - and therefore could offer more lower mass/center of gravity sports car charateristics. And is it anywhere near as far fetched as an SUV fitting its heritage?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Cayenne isn't based on any existing platform. It's brand new. There's no reason whatever you can't consider it a big car, or even a station wagon.

As to the two car scenario, I can tell you right off that two cars are out of the question for me, simply from a logistical/hassle standpoint. Two cars is twice as much to deal with. On the occasions I've had two at once, I had one stolen and didn't know for a week, and I invariably find myself preferring one to the other. There's just no point in me having two (or more) cars, irrespective of cost. I doubt I'm the only one.

BTW, I like your math.

M758

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
<strong>
[snip]
Two cars is twice as much to deal with. On the occasions I've had two at once, I had one stolen and didn't know for a week..
[snip]
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Brickerson.. I really don't want to be nasty here, but I am afraid it will come out this way ... How the in the frigging hell do you have car stolen and not know for a week?? Please tell me you were out of town, cause if not then the Porsche Humain society needs to come and put your car in safe home!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
[QB]The Cayenne isn't based on any existing platform. It's brand new...QB]<hr></blockquote>

Maybe it's not based on any existing car but it's SUV, and i don't think it's the first one of those.

[quote]Originally posted by brickerson:
[QB]...There's no reason whatever you can't consider it a big car, or even a station wagon...QB]<hr></blockquote>

So you mean it's NOT a big car?
You might wanna re-think that...

First, take a look at this:




Then, here are some stats about this truck:

Curb weight 5,192 lbs.
Length 188.4 in.
Width 75.9 in.
Height 66.9 in.

Not my idea of a compact sports car...

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by M758:
<strong>

Brickerson.. I really don't want to be nasty here, but I am afraid it will come out this way ... How the in the frigging hell do you have car stolen and not know for a week?? Please tell me you were out of town, cause if not then the Porsche Humain society needs to come and put your car in safe home!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

This was the last time I had two cars at once. I had one in the garage, and was driving the other one daily. The other was stolen and I had not been in the garage for a week, and consequently didn't know.

I do need somebody to put me out of my misery, though.

<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

brickerson

[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>

So you mean it's NOT a big car?
You might wanna re-think that...

First, take a look at this:




Then, here are some stats about this truck:

Curb weight 5,192 lbs.
Length 188.4 in.
Width 75.9 in.
Height 66.9 in.

Not my idea of a compact sports car...</strong><hr></blockquote>

You might want to re-read what I wrote.

I said there's no reason the Cayenne shouldn't be considered a big car rather than a truck. Since Porsche doesn't have an existing truck, there's now way to say it's based on a "truck platform." Further, there are SUVs based on existing "car platforms," such as the RX300 or the ML. It is certainly no less a "sports car" than a SEDAN.

At NO point did I say the Cayenne was light or small.

Look, you can hate this vehicle all you want, but the fact remains that there were very sound reasons for developing it, that Porsche has looked at developing other than sports cars for most of its existence, and that the Cayenne isn't going away, and will likely be a significant success.

I think people are upset about it because they think they won't seem as cool when they say "I drive a Porsche."

Don't we have a word for that? Starting with a "P"?