DUMP THE PAPRIKA AND GIVE US OUR 911 BACK.
07-29-2002, 10:27 PM
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Christian,
Deep breath, lets see...
[quote] He knows more about the motor industry than all the signatories of any petition combined might hope to - and most importantly has proved it over the last 10 years.<hr></blockquote>
Really? Hmmm, not sure what he did at Toyota so I can't respond other then say building cars is not rocket science - it's all about design and execution. And so far the execution is long-in-coming, and the design is butt-ugly.
As far as his tenure at Porsche, the Japanese manufacturing techniques did save a ton of money - which has now been dumped into the new Leipzig plant - also the home of the (non-racing) Carerra GT.
[quote] Porsche is in the best Financial health it has ever been in - because of him.<hr></blockquote>
The Boxster was a good product decision at a good time. If he was responsible, then I tip my hat to you Fabled Fred. However, the P-fish is a bad design at the wrong time. They got the Boxster to market in 3 years. The P-fish is now on year 5, and counting.
[quote] The current range of P-Cars are the most capable ever produced and are universally acclaimed as the leaders of each class of vehicle they produce - like or loathe the idea on an SUV this will be the case with the Cayenne too. All under his stewardship.<hr></blockquote>
That's judgment call, but I won't disagree - except for the P-fish. It will be seen as too expensive when compared to its better looking and nearly as capable VW cousin. Remember this is not a sports car demo, it's an SUV demo with different buying criteria. Will the fickle NA SUV buyer spend $75K in this market?
[quote] The "ranch" has not been bet on the Success of the SUV - analyze the company figures if you doubt this.<hr></blockquote>
Love to see any financials you can offer - or where I can research this further. But, every article I have read (including the speech Fearless Freddie gave at Penn) says the future of Porsche is riding on this fish faced freighter. And ask Adrian, I think he'd agree Porsche is in deep...
[quote] The motorsport budget has been very intelligently reigned in - competing with the likes of Daimler Chrysler in pouring cash down the world's largest plughole of irrelevant hybrid F1 carbonfibre tubs with roofs is fine for multinationals with little financial sense, not a small company like Porsche. The Racer's Group 996 winning it's class at Le Mans having only required a change of brake pads, tyres and fluids means a hell of a lot more to me than any Audi R8.<hr></blockquote>
Very intellegently reigned in? How about just plain stopped! Other then the 50's, when did Porsche take a stab at F1? I know of the failed Indy engine attempt, but F1? Finn and I talk about elite endurance racing, not a solo-class of back marker 996s - no offense to the privateers who put up their own cash to make 'em go...
As far as Audi goes, it is getting major engineering advances (FSI in '03, V8 twin turbo technology coming to an RS6 near you, sequential gear boxes soon...), and prestige from its ALMS, World Challenge (where the S4s are kicking all the 996s to the curb) and LeMans programs. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday - still holds true. It builds brand loyalty and a stream of future buyers. And lets not forget VAG will race their truck! So much for that reveled P-car Dakar heritage...
I'd argue that success of the current 996s (once they learned how to stop them from burning to the ground) came from Porsches racing development of the 90's. Bottom line, Porsche can't race because they don't have enough cash - it's all going toward the development and advertising of the P-fish.
No racing development means no engineering advancement - and sadly the the only thing that might become irrelevant is Porsche's reputation.
[quote] I don't believe Porsche would fare better if owned by VAG or any other of the large motor groups - in fact I think it would be the death of it. Look at Jaguar and compare it with BMW.<hr></blockquote>
I've never bought into this one...Jag was a mess before Ford - same with Rover and Bentley and Lambo and Bugatti...and lets not forget Ferrari. Even if GM ends up owning Fiat, Ferrari will keep pumping out pure Ferarri's. All these firms were on deaths door and have been re-born via aquisition.
BMW is going the other direction - thanks to Bangles mangled designs. The 7 is being discounted here - it is seen as a design joke, and so I fear will be the take on the design of the P-fish. So far the press only talks about the interior...
VAG would give Porsche financial freedom to concentrate on the engineer advancements that come from elite racing development which finds it way into their cars...let someone else build SUVs. Going it alone in this business will continue to be tough sledding. Me thinks Porsche has only quickened its date to be purchased.
[quote] And a plea to all those who seemingly want Porsche to fail with the Cayenne - stand back and think about what you are wishing for - is it really so terrible if the Cayenne is a success?? Will it really spoil "your" Porsche??<hr></blockquote>
Hey, I hope I'm wrong, but my hunch (and that's all it is) is that they have made a series of really bad business decisions coupled with a really ugly design. All-of-which could bring on the fall of this beloved marquee.
I'm all for product line expansion - but building a truck only chassis serves what purpose? They spent all of their cash on a new plant, why? Maybe there's a new sport sedan coming - who knows? But this seems like a big (and unnecessary) series of bets to me. Hopefully, there's a lot more brilliance behind all this then what appears on the surface.
Let the debate rage on, this sure beats the day job... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Deep breath, lets see...
[quote] He knows more about the motor industry than all the signatories of any petition combined might hope to - and most importantly has proved it over the last 10 years.<hr></blockquote>
Really? Hmmm, not sure what he did at Toyota so I can't respond other then say building cars is not rocket science - it's all about design and execution. And so far the execution is long-in-coming, and the design is butt-ugly.
As far as his tenure at Porsche, the Japanese manufacturing techniques did save a ton of money - which has now been dumped into the new Leipzig plant - also the home of the (non-racing) Carerra GT.
[quote] Porsche is in the best Financial health it has ever been in - because of him.<hr></blockquote>
The Boxster was a good product decision at a good time. If he was responsible, then I tip my hat to you Fabled Fred. However, the P-fish is a bad design at the wrong time. They got the Boxster to market in 3 years. The P-fish is now on year 5, and counting.
[quote] The current range of P-Cars are the most capable ever produced and are universally acclaimed as the leaders of each class of vehicle they produce - like or loathe the idea on an SUV this will be the case with the Cayenne too. All under his stewardship.<hr></blockquote>
That's judgment call, but I won't disagree - except for the P-fish. It will be seen as too expensive when compared to its better looking and nearly as capable VW cousin. Remember this is not a sports car demo, it's an SUV demo with different buying criteria. Will the fickle NA SUV buyer spend $75K in this market?
[quote] The "ranch" has not been bet on the Success of the SUV - analyze the company figures if you doubt this.<hr></blockquote>
Love to see any financials you can offer - or where I can research this further. But, every article I have read (including the speech Fearless Freddie gave at Penn) says the future of Porsche is riding on this fish faced freighter. And ask Adrian, I think he'd agree Porsche is in deep...
[quote] The motorsport budget has been very intelligently reigned in - competing with the likes of Daimler Chrysler in pouring cash down the world's largest plughole of irrelevant hybrid F1 carbonfibre tubs with roofs is fine for multinationals with little financial sense, not a small company like Porsche. The Racer's Group 996 winning it's class at Le Mans having only required a change of brake pads, tyres and fluids means a hell of a lot more to me than any Audi R8.<hr></blockquote>
Very intellegently reigned in? How about just plain stopped! Other then the 50's, when did Porsche take a stab at F1? I know of the failed Indy engine attempt, but F1? Finn and I talk about elite endurance racing, not a solo-class of back marker 996s - no offense to the privateers who put up their own cash to make 'em go...
As far as Audi goes, it is getting major engineering advances (FSI in '03, V8 twin turbo technology coming to an RS6 near you, sequential gear boxes soon...), and prestige from its ALMS, World Challenge (where the S4s are kicking all the 996s to the curb) and LeMans programs. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday - still holds true. It builds brand loyalty and a stream of future buyers. And lets not forget VAG will race their truck! So much for that reveled P-car Dakar heritage...
I'd argue that success of the current 996s (once they learned how to stop them from burning to the ground) came from Porsches racing development of the 90's. Bottom line, Porsche can't race because they don't have enough cash - it's all going toward the development and advertising of the P-fish.
No racing development means no engineering advancement - and sadly the the only thing that might become irrelevant is Porsche's reputation.
[quote] I don't believe Porsche would fare better if owned by VAG or any other of the large motor groups - in fact I think it would be the death of it. Look at Jaguar and compare it with BMW.<hr></blockquote>
I've never bought into this one...Jag was a mess before Ford - same with Rover and Bentley and Lambo and Bugatti...and lets not forget Ferrari. Even if GM ends up owning Fiat, Ferrari will keep pumping out pure Ferarri's. All these firms were on deaths door and have been re-born via aquisition.
BMW is going the other direction - thanks to Bangles mangled designs. The 7 is being discounted here - it is seen as a design joke, and so I fear will be the take on the design of the P-fish. So far the press only talks about the interior...
VAG would give Porsche financial freedom to concentrate on the engineer advancements that come from elite racing development which finds it way into their cars...let someone else build SUVs. Going it alone in this business will continue to be tough sledding. Me thinks Porsche has only quickened its date to be purchased.
[quote] And a plea to all those who seemingly want Porsche to fail with the Cayenne - stand back and think about what you are wishing for - is it really so terrible if the Cayenne is a success?? Will it really spoil "your" Porsche??<hr></blockquote>
Hey, I hope I'm wrong, but my hunch (and that's all it is) is that they have made a series of really bad business decisions coupled with a really ugly design. All-of-which could bring on the fall of this beloved marquee.
I'm all for product line expansion - but building a truck only chassis serves what purpose? They spent all of their cash on a new plant, why? Maybe there's a new sport sedan coming - who knows? But this seems like a big (and unnecessary) series of bets to me. Hopefully, there's a lot more brilliance behind all this then what appears on the surface.
Let the debate rage on, this sure beats the day job... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
07-30-2002, 12:48 AM
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Oh, and Kevin, none taken...
[quote]My impression (an observation, not a criticism) is that the arguments against the C posted herein are primarily based on the emotions, tastes and desires of those who clearly aren't buyers anyway.<hr></blockquote>
But...
Emotional, yes because I care so dearly about my favorite brand. And Taste, yes and I bet there will be a lot who feel the same. But, desires, no just sarcasm from someone who was the perfect buyer demo for this rig.
[quote]My impression (an observation, not a criticism) is that the arguments against the C posted herein are primarily based on the emotions, tastes and desires of those who clearly aren't buyers anyway.<hr></blockquote>
But...
Emotional, yes because I care so dearly about my favorite brand. And Taste, yes and I bet there will be a lot who feel the same. But, desires, no just sarcasm from someone who was the perfect buyer demo for this rig.
07-30-2002, 06:43 AM
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Guys,
There is absolutely no question that the entire future of Porsche now lies in the success or failure of the Cayenne. The amount of money that Porsche has invested into the design (VW got it all for free), assembly facilities, new transport logistics system, new parts system etc etc all lies in the hands of the Cayenne. 25,000 a year means if they transported from Slovakia every day, (which they cannot do due to customs restrictions) they are moving approximately 70 Cayennes per day a long way.
A year ago, even six months ago I was pretty certain that the Cayenne would succeed because at least 70% of production is destined for the USA. However today I am not so sure. Mind you I do wish Porsche very success because if the Cayenne is a flop then Porsche is in terrible trouble. If Porsche is taken over, the older Porsche model owners like myself will run almost instantly into spare parts availability problems. This is already becoming an issue in high priced electronic items.
Another important point is currency values and why the European Central Bank has stepped into the financial markets to try and drive down the value of the Euro. A strong Euro hurts exports. A strong US dollar is great for Porsche and the Cayenne. A weak US dollar makes them more expensive in the nation where sales will be the highest for such a product. Europe wants Americans to purchase Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Airbus etc etc.
Moral of the story, the success of the Cayenne lies in the hands of the US economy.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
There is absolutely no question that the entire future of Porsche now lies in the success or failure of the Cayenne. The amount of money that Porsche has invested into the design (VW got it all for free), assembly facilities, new transport logistics system, new parts system etc etc all lies in the hands of the Cayenne. 25,000 a year means if they transported from Slovakia every day, (which they cannot do due to customs restrictions) they are moving approximately 70 Cayennes per day a long way.
A year ago, even six months ago I was pretty certain that the Cayenne would succeed because at least 70% of production is destined for the USA. However today I am not so sure. Mind you I do wish Porsche very success because if the Cayenne is a flop then Porsche is in terrible trouble. If Porsche is taken over, the older Porsche model owners like myself will run almost instantly into spare parts availability problems. This is already becoming an issue in high priced electronic items.
Another important point is currency values and why the European Central Bank has stepped into the financial markets to try and drive down the value of the Euro. A strong Euro hurts exports. A strong US dollar is great for Porsche and the Cayenne. A weak US dollar makes them more expensive in the nation where sales will be the highest for such a product. Europe wants Americans to purchase Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Airbus etc etc.
Moral of the story, the success of the Cayenne lies in the hands of the US economy.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
07-30-2002, 11:03 AM
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mpm,
Thanks! I had those thoughts on my mind and I never would've been able to put them on paper as well as you did.
All those facts (cutting racing, what it does for development etc. etc. etc.) that you mentioned, speak for themself. If there's someone who doesn't see them, they're blind.
BTW, our fearless Freddie never even drove a Porsche before he joined them. Talk about true sportscar fanatic...
Thanks! I had those thoughts on my mind and I never would've been able to put them on paper as well as you did.
All those facts (cutting racing, what it does for development etc. etc. etc.) that you mentioned, speak for themself. If there's someone who doesn't see them, they're blind.
BTW, our fearless Freddie never even drove a Porsche before he joined them. Talk about true sportscar fanatic...
07-30-2002, 03:52 PM
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Finn
I'll make it point to arrange for an eye-test immediately
alternatively we could simply agree to disagree....
With regard to Freddie not being a Porsche fanatic - would you not concede that running a large business such as Porsche AG requires business skills first and arguably fanatacism last?
All in my humble of course.
Kind Regards
I'll make it point to arrange for an eye-test immediately
alternatively we could simply agree to disagree....With regard to Freddie not being a Porsche fanatic - would you not concede that running a large business such as Porsche AG requires business skills first and arguably fanatacism last?
All in my humble of course.
Kind Regards
07-30-2002, 03:58 PM
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Adrian
I'm clearly wrong about this, in comparison to you I suspect i'm in the postage stamp knowledge department. My information was however, that the development and tooling costs of the Cayenne were all covered by a highly succesful share offering placed last 2000/2001, that has left the company substancially in the black even after the Cayenne costs??
Kind Regards
I'm clearly wrong about this, in comparison to you I suspect i'm in the postage stamp knowledge department. My information was however, that the development and tooling costs of the Cayenne were all covered by a highly succesful share offering placed last 2000/2001, that has left the company substancially in the black even after the Cayenne costs??
Kind Regards
07-30-2002, 04:23 PM
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Mpm
An excellent deep breath if I might say so!!
I suspect that there is a lot more we agree about than not and your very erudite replies certainly give food for thought in he areas we don't.
Most importantly it certainly does beat work!
The most contentious area seems to be the racing chestnut - boring for many but an area you might be surprised to know is one of my most passionate - I come from a steeped in the wool racing family, with a father who actually pioneered disc brakes on the Jaguar C-Type going on to reap the benefit at Le Mans and elsewhere in the early 50's.
Why do I then not have a problem with Porsche avoiding the prototype classes in endurance racing at the moment? I suggest we "lift" the debate to the racing discussion forum where it might be a bit more appropriate.
I'll try and concoct a more expansive explanation of my thinking there over the next 24hrs and allow you, should you feel inclined, to point out the error of my thoughts....
Kind regards
An excellent deep breath if I might say so!!
I suspect that there is a lot more we agree about than not and your very erudite replies certainly give food for thought in he areas we don't.
Most importantly it certainly does beat work!
The most contentious area seems to be the racing chestnut - boring for many but an area you might be surprised to know is one of my most passionate - I come from a steeped in the wool racing family, with a father who actually pioneered disc brakes on the Jaguar C-Type going on to reap the benefit at Le Mans and elsewhere in the early 50's.
Why do I then not have a problem with Porsche avoiding the prototype classes in endurance racing at the moment? I suggest we "lift" the debate to the racing discussion forum where it might be a bit more appropriate.
I'll try and concoct a more expansive explanation of my thinking there over the next 24hrs and allow you, should you feel inclined, to point out the error of my thoughts....
Kind regards
07-30-2002, 05:10 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Christian Stewart:
<strong>Adrian
I'm clearly wrong about this, in comparison to you I suspect i'm in the postage stamp knowledge department...</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> That's a good one!
Christian,
You're not there, or if you are, I'm there next to you!
I assume you read my post by yourself (rather than having someone to read it to you), eye examin is not necessary.
I'm sure Porsche still has money left that came from building those 911's & Boxsters, which makes it so hard to understand why Porsche needs this truck to save them from financial disaster..?
And since they do have money left, why don't they use (at least some of it) for racing?
<strong>Adrian
I'm clearly wrong about this, in comparison to you I suspect i'm in the postage stamp knowledge department...</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> That's a good one!
Christian,
You're not there, or if you are, I'm there next to you!
I assume you read my post by yourself (rather than having someone to read it to you), eye examin is not necessary.
I'm sure Porsche still has money left that came from building those 911's & Boxsters, which makes it so hard to understand why Porsche needs this truck to save them from financial disaster..?
And since they do have money left, why don't they use (at least some of it) for racing?
07-30-2002, 09:50 PM
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Gents,
A couple points of clarification, I most certainly don't want to see the end of Porsche (just the re-birth of an elite racing program and engineering freedom that VAG would offer), Factoid Freddie is probably a decent enough chap, and he deserves credit for making a bold bet (even if wrecks the company in the process
), I will publicly eat crow if I'm wrong, and this forum is cheaper then therapy...
With that said back to the debate...
Finn, I behind you all the way...
Christian,
[quote] I suspect that there is a lot more we agree about than not and your very erudite replies certainly give food for thought in he areas we don't.<hr></blockquote>
To that we most certainly agree...
[quote] The most contentious area seems to be the racing chestnut - boring for many but an area you might be surprised to know is one of my most passionate - I come from a steeped in the wool racing family, with a father who actually pioneered disc brakes on the Jaguar C-Type going on to reap the benefit at Le Mans and elsewhere in the early 50's.<hr></blockquote>
Very cool about your dad, love to hear more. But knowing that, I'm a little surprised that you are not more adamant about the benefits of racing for product development...
[quote] Why do I then not have a problem with Porsche avoiding the prototype classes in endurance racing at the moment? I suggest we "lift" the debate to the racing discussion forum where it might be a bit more appropriate. <hr></blockquote>
For Finn and me this is the crux of the debate. The P-fish comes at the expense of racing development, and this debate deserves to be aired here.
[quote] I'll try and concoct a more expansive explanation of my thinking there over the next 24hrs and allow you, should you feel inclined, to point out the error of my thoughts....<hr></blockquote>
Not trying to point error - all rational thoughts are valid - and you and Kevin are as thought provoking. I just like teaming up with Finn and keeping this debate going Adrian can act as referee - as well as throw in his insights and suggestions.
Respectfully...
A couple points of clarification, I most certainly don't want to see the end of Porsche (just the re-birth of an elite racing program and engineering freedom that VAG would offer), Factoid Freddie is probably a decent enough chap, and he deserves credit for making a bold bet (even if wrecks the company in the process
), I will publicly eat crow if I'm wrong, and this forum is cheaper then therapy...With that said back to the debate...
Finn, I behind you all the way...
Christian,
[quote] I suspect that there is a lot more we agree about than not and your very erudite replies certainly give food for thought in he areas we don't.<hr></blockquote>
To that we most certainly agree...
[quote] The most contentious area seems to be the racing chestnut - boring for many but an area you might be surprised to know is one of my most passionate - I come from a steeped in the wool racing family, with a father who actually pioneered disc brakes on the Jaguar C-Type going on to reap the benefit at Le Mans and elsewhere in the early 50's.<hr></blockquote>
Very cool about your dad, love to hear more. But knowing that, I'm a little surprised that you are not more adamant about the benefits of racing for product development...
[quote] Why do I then not have a problem with Porsche avoiding the prototype classes in endurance racing at the moment? I suggest we "lift" the debate to the racing discussion forum where it might be a bit more appropriate. <hr></blockquote>
For Finn and me this is the crux of the debate. The P-fish comes at the expense of racing development, and this debate deserves to be aired here.
[quote] I'll try and concoct a more expansive explanation of my thinking there over the next 24hrs and allow you, should you feel inclined, to point out the error of my thoughts....<hr></blockquote>
Not trying to point error - all rational thoughts are valid - and you and Kevin are as thought provoking. I just like teaming up with Finn and keeping this debate going
Adrian can act as referee - as well as throw in his insights and suggestions.Respectfully...
07-30-2002, 11:28 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>...Finn, I behind you all the way...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Likeways My friend, likeways! (that spelling MUST be wrong) It's always nice to meet a soulmate!
[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>...I just like teaming up with Finn and keeping this debate going Adrian can act as referee - as well as throw in his insights and suggestions...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You know, when you team up with a Finn, you either end up drunk, or chatting about glorious motorsport championships that "Flying Finns" have achieved! (or most likely, both)...
BTW, trivia here (just to lighten up this "battle" of ours):
Who was the Finnish driver who drove for Porsche in prototype class?
5 point hint: He was first driver (in F1) to take Eau Rouge flat out.
3 point hint: He hold Silverstone lap reord 'til last year.
1 point hint: He was manager for 2 time (in a row) world champion, Mika Hakkinen.
Ah, what can I say, I just love motor racing, smell of gasoline & burned rubber.
<strong>...Finn, I behind you all the way...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Likeways My friend, likeways! (that spelling MUST be wrong)
It's always nice to meet a soulmate![quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>...I just like teaming up with Finn and keeping this debate going
Adrian can act as referee - as well as throw in his insights and suggestions...</strong><hr></blockquote>You know, when you team up with a Finn, you either end up drunk, or chatting about glorious motorsport championships that "Flying Finns" have achieved! (or most likely, both)...
BTW, trivia here (just to lighten up this "battle" of ours):
Who was the Finnish driver who drove for Porsche in prototype class?
5 point hint: He was first driver (in F1) to take Eau Rouge flat out.
3 point hint: He hold Silverstone lap reord 'til last year.
1 point hint: He was manager for 2 time (in a row) world champion, Mika Hakkinen.
Ah, what can I say, I just love motor racing, smell of gasoline & burned rubber.
07-31-2002, 07:37 AM
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Guys,
I am not a good umpire when it comes to people opinions. Cannot win and nor should anyone. Life would be so boring.
PAG is Billions of Euros into this SUV project. The share transaction that was done was to give all shareholders 10 new shares for every old one. I was not aware they actually issued new non voting shares for sale. Mind you I am a poor guy I do not watch stock prices.
I have posted a little extra stuff in the VW versus Cayenne post as well.
I guess I am a little more mellow and get less stressed over these things nowadays. I enjoy what we have and our families involvement in Porsche racing via The Racers Group gives a different perspective to things. It is also hard work.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
I am not a good umpire when it comes to people opinions. Cannot win and nor should anyone. Life would be so boring.
PAG is Billions of Euros into this SUV project. The share transaction that was done was to give all shareholders 10 new shares for every old one. I was not aware they actually issued new non voting shares for sale. Mind you I am a poor guy I do not watch stock prices.
I have posted a little extra stuff in the VW versus Cayenne post as well.
I guess I am a little more mellow and get less stressed over these things nowadays. I enjoy what we have and our families involvement in Porsche racing via The Racers Group gives a different perspective to things. It is also hard work.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
07-31-2002, 09:42 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
<strong>Keke Rosberg</strong><hr></blockquote>
Correct! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
<strong>Keke Rosberg</strong><hr></blockquote>
Correct! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
07-31-2002, 10:30 AM
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Adrian
No desire to see you "umpiring" - just trying to take advantage of your encyclopedic knowledge.
I'm pretty sure too that the discussions here about the Cayenne, Racing etc are being done in good humour and in the vein of good natured but passionate bar-room debate, nothing more.
I'm certianly ordering another round - anyone need a top up? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
No desire to see you "umpiring" - just trying to take advantage of your encyclopedic knowledge.
I'm pretty sure too that the discussions here about the Cayenne, Racing etc are being done in good humour and in the vein of good natured but passionate bar-room debate, nothing more.
I'm certianly ordering another round - anyone need a top up? <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
07-31-2002, 11:26 AM
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Dear Christian,
I agree but sometimes things do heat up a little bit. One reason I am now a moderator.
One thing I forgot. Young Freddie keeps coming up. He is PCNA. PCNA is a wholly owned subsidary of PAG. Owned in the majority by PAG and a minority part by a Swiss company which is also a wholly owned subsidary of PAG. I very much doubt that Freddie has much influence in Stuttgart. He is big in the USA because the PCNA is the official Porsche distributor for the USA but it is a long way from the real power at Porsche which lies in the boards and the shareholders.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: You rarely here in Europe ever hear mention of PCNA. You often here about other distributorships but I do not recall any articles in any of the motoring press including PAGs own, mentioning young Freddie.
I agree but sometimes things do heat up a little bit. One reason I am now a moderator.
One thing I forgot. Young Freddie keeps coming up. He is PCNA. PCNA is a wholly owned subsidary of PAG. Owned in the majority by PAG and a minority part by a Swiss company which is also a wholly owned subsidary of PAG. I very much doubt that Freddie has much influence in Stuttgart. He is big in the USA because the PCNA is the official Porsche distributor for the USA but it is a long way from the real power at Porsche which lies in the boards and the shareholders.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: You rarely here in Europe ever hear mention of PCNA. You often here about other distributorships but I do not recall any articles in any of the motoring press including PAGs own, mentioning young Freddie.