roschpe

.

Adrian

Unfortunately if Porsche dump the SUV they will also have to dump the 911, Boxster and the factory. They are far far too financially committed to survive dumping this project. Unless of course we want the Porsche Badge changed to the Mercedes Star. The SUV is reality, it comes on the market next year and the survival of the 911 depends now almost exclusively on the success of this project,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

roschpe

mm I'd rather see the "Star" on a 4 wheeled rolling box called the M-Class. And the Porsche crest on a sports car, where it belongs.

You are bluntly wrong.
The survival does not depend soley on the SUV.

What about Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Buggatti?
They are all surviving ask your self why.
b/c Fiat bought Ferrari, VW bought Lambo and Buggatti.


Brands are important. The Porsche brand is for sports cars not SUV's.

If we were lucky Mercedes would buy Porsche and focus on sports cars for their "Porsche" brand. And use their Mercedes brand for Sedans and SUV's.

The worst thing you can do to a brand is erode it. If Porsche continues to do this, their brand, and the company will be worth less....

Go ask any Marketing Guru about brands and then apply it to Porsche and they will tell you the same thing....

GeoC2cab

High,
Hey guy, Adrian is right man, if the pepper fails then their gonna put more man power and money into something that uses the suv technology, no more 911 dude... can u say 9 2 8? as for the other guys they survive becouse they haven't dumped 2 billion into a suv. Sad but true. There is a funny side to all this, W.W. didn't count the beans right,
and we all thought he was a pro..

Adrian

Dear Roschpe,
I suggest you come from where you are currently, to me and I will take you to meet the people face to face. Oh by the way I will also take you down to the place of the subsidies, three hours drive from my house. It is called Ferrari land. Lamborghini was bankrupt as was Maserati. Lambo is now run by Audi management and Maserati by Ferrari (FIAT) management. Bugatti, VW purchased the name of a long dead company. Bugatti is the name VW are applying to another of their super car products.
However the point is. I suggest you read a little genuine Porsche history. Ferry was 100% behind the SUV. He led the original negotiations with Mercedes way back in the mid 1990s. Yes, Porsche were going to joint produce with Mercedes a SUV for the US market. Mercedes turned it down because they said there was no profit in it. I personally do not like the idea of the SUV either but we have it, it is on the way. We will have SUV owners to integrate into our clubs (Porsche request btw) and we just have to get used to it. You cannot change it, it is not going to go away so adjust or purchase a Lamborghini Tractor, or a Maserati Motorcyle, or maybe a Porsche tractor. Go for a Harley or a SEAT maybe even a Subaru,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

PS: Maybe you could identify yourself so we know who were are talking with. Where are you from.

roschpe

Adrian,

Whether I want to accept the SUV or not has nothing to do with the argument that Porsche is eroding their brand by building a vehicle outside of their niche market.

I would also say that Mercedes as well is eroding its "premium" brand by making vehicles that sell for under $40K.

I don't mean any disrespect here, but go to a bookstore and go find a marketing book, by Al Ries or Jack Trout. In it they will explain to you the importance of a brand to the value of a company.

There is no doubt that the Porsche brand will be eroded no matter how fast or how expensive they make this SUV. The Porsche name was created through Porsche's excellence in Motor racing. An SUV no matter if it will "save" the company will do nothing for this Porsche Brand.

Gonzo

"in order to save the village we had to destroy the village..."

The sooner we start thinking of Porsche as just-another-car-manufacturer the better the medicine will taste.

Mike in Chi

roschpe

I agree with Geo, Adrian is (bluntly) right. The bet has been made, whether some like it or not, and they can't take the money off the table.

About brands.

Porsche's brand equity was built with sports cars. The essence of it is performance. And like all brands, theirs has to be protected, maintained and kept healthy.

But businesses are built -- grown -- by extending brand equity to new products. That's why Sony makes far more than the transistor radios they started with.

In order to understand their brand, and why people buy it, Porsche breaks their buyers into 5 or 6 sub-groups. The people on this board would fall into one loosely labeled "purists". It's hard for many of us to accept Porsche moving beyond high performance sports cars, and some of the sacrifices made to get there - like the race program.

To other segments, Porsche means fast, well-built cars. And to some, it means a status symbol for picking up chicks.

Porsche needs all of those customers, whether we want to associate with all of them or not. If they go away, PAG builds fewer cars. To build fewer cars, (or even to build them today they way the 964 and 993 were built), would mean much higher prices.

Porsche's equity is in performance and competition. It can easily be extended to an SUV, for most of the people who are attracted to the brand.

I just received today their mailing for the Cayenne.

It looks like they are marketing it around their off road competition heritage. Like the Monte Carlo rally, and the 959. My guess is they will be racing the Cayenne in Paris-Dakar, Baja 1000 and other off road endurance racers, as soon as it is launched.

It fits.

Porsche builds great cars that are a ball to drive. They haven't let us down yet. I think they can do exactly that with an SUV. They are already claiming the Turbo Cayenne will OUTPERFORM a Carrera (Nov. Automobile). If that's true, they haven't hurt the brand. They have not even merely maintained it. They have enhanced it.

I'm willing to give the factory the benefit of the doubt. I may be one of the more moderate about this issue, but I'm not going to condemn the Cayenne til I drive it.

In addition to my Porsches, I also own a Jeep GC with 100,000 miles on it. Would I consider an SUV that has all the fun and performance of a Porsche to replace it? You betcha.

A financial healthy, less cyclical and independent company is the best scenario for PAG, and for those of us who love the cars and the brand.

If there is something to fret about, it's not that they made the bet on the SUV, it whether they made the bet too late.

This is all just my opinion, of course, but it is a professional opinion. I have been in marketing and advertising for close to 30 years.

A free lesson learned in those thirty years: Never let your personal feelings cloud your thinking.

Mike in Chi

Adrian

Dear Mike and Gonzo,
You are both very correct. There is or seems to be a snob type attachment to the name Porsche. If you read and follow Ferry and Lousie Porsches dream in their writings, what they wanted was a large, respected and profitable auto manufacturing company. Porsche has built something like 650 prototypes from super cars to minivans. Porsche have produced what they could or believed they could sell. If you visit the technical museums of Germany and surrounds you will see some of these prototypes. Porsche built tractors, why, to gain from the Marshall plan. The USA paid big money to support local tractor manufacturing.
Porsche engineering ar einvolved in thousands of projects. It is called making money. The Porsche brand is expanding, the market share is expanding and I will be the first to admit that the SUVs acceptance here in Europe from Porsche has been let us say, surprising.
A Gonzo said, better get used to it because this is the way it is. Let us look at the sales figures in the next two years. Tis not books that sells Porsches it is Porsche. The most popular SEAT for a long time was the one with a Porsche engine installed in it. Did not harm Porsche either. Developing the new engine for the Harley does not seem to have damaged Porsche and you can still buy a Porsche tractor in the oldtimer markets and they still turn heads. Guards Red Turbo or Guards Red Tractor,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

Gonzo

Mike in Chi
Although yours is the most eloquent defense of the Cayenne I have yet seen, I would disagree with the point made about most Cayenne detractors being "purists". As you say, Porsche has always made sportscars. The Cayenne is NOT a sportscar. It's as if a pride of lions adopted a baby hippo; it's a shocking development and one certain to cause a gnashing of teeth.
I, myself don't hate the cup-holders in my Porsche, ipso facto I cannot be a purist.
On behalf of Porsche and your local Porsche dealer I genuinely hope the Cayenne sells but it neither has nor needs my blessing.

Mike in Chi

Gonzo,

Point well taken.

You don't have to be a purist to not like the idea of the Cayenne, or the actual product when it's launched.

I do think most of us on this board would fall into Porsche's demo/psychographic break of purists. I wish I could find the article where I first read of how they broke out all their buyers, and the terms they had for them. It was very interesting reading.

As you rightfully say, it is "a shocking development".

I guess I'm gonna just wait and see, before I start gnashing.

Mike

BTW, wouldn't mind a cupholder in my 993. I spent a long time looking for a tip proof coffee mug for those early morning drives to Road America

Kaz

In regards to high end manufacturing cars under $40K. One way to look at it is brand corrosion but the car manufactures look at it as entry level. These cars are merely carrots to lure you to the brand so that one day, you too can move up to the coveted E Class or S Class Mercedes Benz, etc. I don't think having an under $40 model corrodes the brand in and of itself but if the car performs poorly for it's class and/or is of cheap build quality then that's the problem.


K

Mike in Chi

Kaz

A good example of each is the 3 series BMW, and the Cadillac Cimarron.

Mike in CA

Mike in Chi, very thoughtful analysis. I agree completely with your points, some of which I've tried to make myself in other forums, but probably not as succinctly as you did . I too am willing to give Porsche the benefit of the doubt and could easily see a Porsche SUV fitting into my mix of vehicles. Thanks for your perspective.

Mike

Mike in Chi

Mike in CA,

thanks, I appreciate knowing it was meaningful for you, especially since it took so long to type by my hunt and peck method.


Mike in Chi