DUMP THE PAPRIKA AND GIVE US OUR 911 BACK.
07-08-2002, 11:15 PM
#47
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Hi All
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
It looks like they are marketing it around their off road competition heritage. Like the Monte Carlo rally, and the 959. My guess is they will be racing the Cayenne in Paris-Dakar, Baja 1000 and other off road endurance racers, as soon as it is launched.
It fits.
/QUOTE]
I would like to pick up on this point by Mike in Chi, which I think is the most relevant of all - let's face it, even to non-purists, the Porsche Brand stands for very fast, very capable and well made racing cars... which Porsche kindly have turned into street machines for us not-in-the-drivers-seat Le Mans fans. Well, you get my point.
If that is the case, then surely it is what Porsche does with the Cayenne that counts. Put it into the appropriate racing scenes, win, and win again, and then let's see.
My guess is it will be successful.
I hated the idea at first, but when one considers what the 959 looked like in the Paris to Dakkar, it looked like a 911 with a SUV suspension kit. But wait, when I look at the Cayenne when the light is just so....
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
It looks like they are marketing it around their off road competition heritage. Like the Monte Carlo rally, and the 959. My guess is they will be racing the Cayenne in Paris-Dakar, Baja 1000 and other off road endurance racers, as soon as it is launched.
It fits.
/QUOTE]
I would like to pick up on this point by Mike in Chi, which I think is the most relevant of all - let's face it, even to non-purists, the Porsche Brand stands for very fast, very capable and well made racing cars... which Porsche kindly have turned into street machines for us not-in-the-drivers-seat Le Mans fans. Well, you get my point.
If that is the case, then surely it is what Porsche does with the Cayenne that counts. Put it into the appropriate racing scenes, win, and win again, and then let's see.
My guess is it will be successful.
I hated the idea at first, but when one considers what the 959 looked like in the Paris to Dakkar, it looked like a 911 with a SUV suspension kit. But wait, when I look at the Cayenne when the light is just so....
07-09-2002, 06:30 AM
#48
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Guys,
according to the local motoring press in this part of the wrold, VW will be using their SUV version in the Paris-Dakar in 2005. They have already signed some big name Paris-Dakar rally drivers. No mention of Porsche at all. An article recently released suggests Porsche may start looking at open competition racing from 2004 onwards but not until the rules have been settled and remain intact for a period of time.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: There is also a building noise about Audi going into F1. Audi keep denying it but their denials get sort of less forceful each time.
according to the local motoring press in this part of the wrold, VW will be using their SUV version in the Paris-Dakar in 2005. They have already signed some big name Paris-Dakar rally drivers. No mention of Porsche at all. An article recently released suggests Porsche may start looking at open competition racing from 2004 onwards but not until the rules have been settled and remain intact for a period of time.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
PS: There is also a building noise about Audi going into F1. Audi keep denying it but their denials get sort of less forceful each time.
07-11-2002, 09:36 PM
#49
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Hey Adrian
[quote]Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong>
PS: There is also a building noise about Audi going into F1. Audi keep denying it but their denials get sort of less forceful each time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NOW we're talking!! Wouldn't that be just brilliant? BMW, Ferrari, Jaguar, Mercedes, Toyota, ... Audi!
I could be sarcastic here and suggest that it would be great to see the Porsche logo along with the one's above instead of Audi, but that could only happen if VW purschased Porsche... and we've debated that already.
If Audi turn out a F1 car as good as their Le Mans performance, we'll be in for a fantastic racing scene....
Thanks for that ...er... secret
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
[quote]Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong>
PS: There is also a building noise about Audi going into F1. Audi keep denying it but their denials get sort of less forceful each time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NOW we're talking!! Wouldn't that be just brilliant? BMW, Ferrari, Jaguar, Mercedes, Toyota, ... Audi!
I could be sarcastic here and suggest that it would be great to see the Porsche logo along with the one's above instead of Audi, but that could only happen if VW purschased Porsche... and we've debated that already.
If Audi turn out a F1 car as good as their Le Mans performance, we'll be in for a fantastic racing scene....
Thanks for that ...er... secret
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
07-27-2002, 10:31 AM
#51
You guys are forgetting that you have the wrong hormones flowing through your veins to understand why Porsche is putting out this SUV. My wife would ****** one up in a heart beat, if she could, and trade in her Tahoe. Someone mentioned the worst scenerio would be soccer moms driving these. Well, get ready to meet your nightmare. It'll be sitting at a stop light near you.
In my opinion, if you really think Porsche has survived by only building sports cars, you don't seem to be entirely familiar with the history of the company. Sorry, no offense intended.
In my opinion, if you really think Porsche has survived by only building sports cars, you don't seem to be entirely familiar with the history of the company. Sorry, no offense intended.
07-27-2002, 03:36 PM
#52
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[quote]Originally posted by roschpe:
<strong>mm I'd rather see the "Star" on a 4 wheeled rolling box called the M-Class. And the Porsche crest on a sports car, where it belongs.
You are bluntly wrong.
The survival does not depend soley on the SUV.
What about Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Buggatti?
They are all surviving ask your self why.
b/c Fiat bought Ferrari, VW bought Lambo and Buggatti.
Brands are important. The Porsche brand is for sports cars not SUV's.
If we were lucky Mercedes would buy Porsche and focus on sports cars for their "Porsche" brand. And use their Mercedes brand for Sedans and SUV's.
The worst thing you can do to a brand is erode it. If Porsche continues to do this, their brand, and the company will be worth less....
Go ask any Marketing Guru about brands and then apply it to Porsche and they will tell you the same thing....</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>mm I'd rather see the "Star" on a 4 wheeled rolling box called the M-Class. And the Porsche crest on a sports car, where it belongs.
You are bluntly wrong.
The survival does not depend soley on the SUV.
What about Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Buggatti?
They are all surviving ask your self why.
b/c Fiat bought Ferrari, VW bought Lambo and Buggatti.
Brands are important. The Porsche brand is for sports cars not SUV's.
If we were lucky Mercedes would buy Porsche and focus on sports cars for their "Porsche" brand. And use their Mercedes brand for Sedans and SUV's.
The worst thing you can do to a brand is erode it. If Porsche continues to do this, their brand, and the company will be worth less....
Go ask any Marketing Guru about brands and then apply it to Porsche and they will tell you the same thing....</strong><hr></blockquote>
07-27-2002, 09:18 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
A few people have touched on it - why an SUV!
This is a totally 'invented' and pointless category of vehicle, the ultimate 'I'm higher than you and I've got more money than you' statement. Limited interior space, cr*p roadholding (high center of gravity - doh!) I bought it because it can....well why did'nt you buy a XXX which will also do.... In a recent UK survey the most common reason to buy an SUV is 'to protect my children' why? Cos everyone is driving a bl**dy tank as well!!
If Porsche want to make money, fine, do an Audi style 'All Roader' - or Super Mini like BMW and the Mini.
SUV's are tacky and Porsche should have stood above and looked down on this trend which might just be....er...a trend.
BR
Piers
1990 C4 Coupe
1997 C200 Mercedes - absolute rubbish - another German company going down the market and the pan!
1988 Citroen 2CV - a great French company that went down the pan because they lost their individuality and followed the trend!!!!
This is a totally 'invented' and pointless category of vehicle, the ultimate 'I'm higher than you and I've got more money than you' statement. Limited interior space, cr*p roadholding (high center of gravity - doh!) I bought it because it can....well why did'nt you buy a XXX which will also do.... In a recent UK survey the most common reason to buy an SUV is 'to protect my children' why? Cos everyone is driving a bl**dy tank as well!!
If Porsche want to make money, fine, do an Audi style 'All Roader' - or Super Mini like BMW and the Mini.
SUV's are tacky and Porsche should have stood above and looked down on this trend which might just be....er...a trend.
BR
Piers
1990 C4 Coupe
1997 C200 Mercedes - absolute rubbish - another German company going down the market and the pan!
1988 Citroen 2CV - a great French company that went down the pan because they lost their individuality and followed the trend!!!!
07-28-2002, 12:58 PM
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Welcome to the anti P-fish club Roygarth, some of us (most notably Finn and myself) have echoed your sentiments from the get-go...
Since we own an allroad, I'm a little biased, but if Porsche had to do something - a sports estate (and more notably a cross-over estate) would have more closely befitted Porsche's image. Not to mention, this is the new trend the market is heading towards.
It's taken way too long for Porsche to go from design and execution to launch. By the time the P-fish shows, the targeted (and fickle) segment buyer (lemmings who lease what is currently in fashion) will have moved on to a new segment. Will the super-wealthy really shell out $75K+ for a Porsche badge on their P-fish snout in this collapsed stock market environment?
Perhaps the biggest kiss-of-death is it is just plain ugly. The lines don't flow, the front looks like a catfish, the A pillar is straight off the ML and the C (or D) pillar doesn't work. Worst of all Hyundai got to this bulgy and swoppy but inherently sloppy design first.
Porsche has bet the ranch on the P-fish (building plants, designing a new platform - and a truck/SUV only platform to boot
, and using up all their hard earned cash). Why, so they can sell 25,000 units to a "new" P-car segment, and prove they can build nice interiors? As stated since the begining, they could have gotten there better/cheaper/faster by building off an existing VAG avant platform stuffed it with the new V8tt and strapped on existing go fast parts from the parts bin. Ego goith before the fall...
And lastly, to financially digest this thing, the P-fish has kept Porsche out of factory racing for 4 or 5 years - an insult to loyalist, who (like me) have followed the brand since childhood. Throwing salt in the wound, VW will race theirs! Porsche won't, and now we learn this is also the case with the Carerra GT ...can Porsche ever truly compete on the world stage again?
Hopefully, this product failure will open the doors to bring Porsche back into VAG and let them get back to the real business of building sports cars - and pushing the engineering envelope through racing! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
Since we own an allroad, I'm a little biased, but if Porsche had to do something - a sports estate (and more notably a cross-over estate) would have more closely befitted Porsche's image. Not to mention, this is the new trend the market is heading towards.
It's taken way too long for Porsche to go from design and execution to launch. By the time the P-fish shows, the targeted (and fickle) segment buyer (lemmings who lease what is currently in fashion) will have moved on to a new segment. Will the super-wealthy really shell out $75K+ for a Porsche badge on their P-fish snout in this collapsed stock market environment?
Perhaps the biggest kiss-of-death is it is just plain ugly. The lines don't flow, the front looks like a catfish, the A pillar is straight off the ML and the C (or D) pillar doesn't work. Worst of all Hyundai got to this bulgy and swoppy but inherently sloppy design first.
Porsche has bet the ranch on the P-fish (building plants, designing a new platform - and a truck/SUV only platform to boot
, and using up all their hard earned cash). Why, so they can sell 25,000 units to a "new" P-car segment, and prove they can build nice interiors? As stated since the begining, they could have gotten there better/cheaper/faster by building off an existing VAG avant platform stuffed it with the new V8tt and strapped on existing go fast parts from the parts bin. Ego goith before the fall...And lastly, to financially digest this thing, the P-fish has kept Porsche out of factory racing for 4 or 5 years - an insult to loyalist, who (like me) have followed the brand since childhood. Throwing salt in the wound, VW will race theirs! Porsche won't, and now we learn this is also the case with the Carerra GT
...can Porsche ever truly compete on the world stage again?Hopefully, this product failure will open the doors to bring Porsche back into VAG and let them get back to the real business of building sports cars - and pushing the engineering envelope through racing! <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
07-28-2002, 01:42 PM
#56
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[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>...And the additional insult to loyalist, who have followed the brand since childhood, is this thing has kept Porsche out of factory racing for 4 or 5 years while they build this thing. Throwing salt in the wound, VW will race theirs and Porsche won't - or now we learn this holds turn with the Carerra GT Will Porsche ever truly compete on the world stage again?... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Uuuhh... Reading that makes me feel pain in my stomach...
<strong>...And the additional insult to loyalist, who have followed the brand since childhood, is this thing has kept Porsche out of factory racing for 4 or 5 years while they build this thing. Throwing salt in the wound, VW will race theirs and Porsche won't - or now we learn this holds turn with the Carerra GT
Will Porsche ever truly compete on the world stage again?... </strong><hr></blockquote>Uuuhh... Reading that makes me feel pain in my stomach...
07-28-2002, 02:39 PM
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Maybe we should start a dump Freddie campaign, like the Dump Bangle BMW campaign I just signed...
<a href="http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/" target="_blank">http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/</a>
<a href="http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/" target="_blank">http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/</a>
07-29-2002, 10:32 AM
#59
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Just to inject a little balance here....
I won't be signing any "dump Freddy" petition.
Why?
He knows more about the motor industry than all the signatories of any petition combined might hope to - and most importantly has proved it over the last 10 years.
Porsche is in the best Financial health it has ever been in - because of him.
The current range of P-Cars are the most capable ever produced and are universally acclaimed as the leaders of each class of vehicle they produce - like or loathe the idea on an SUV this will be the case with the Cayenne too. All under his stewardship.
The "ranch" has not been bet on the Success of the SUV - analyse the company figures if you doubt this.
The motorsport budget has been very intelligently reigned in - competing with the likes of Daimler Chrysler in pouring cash down the world's largest plughole of irrelevant hybrid F1 carbonfibre tubs with roofs is fine for multinationals with little financial sense, not a small company like Porsche. The Racer's Group 996 winning it's class at Le Mans having only required a change of brake pads, tyres and fluids means a hell of a lot more to me than any Audi R8.
I don't believe Porsche would fare better if owned by VAG or any other of the large motor groups - in fact I think it would be the death of it. Look at Jaguar and compare it with BMW.
And a plea to all those who seemingly want Porsche to fail with the Cayenne - stand back and think about what you are wishing for - is it really so terrible if the Cayenne is a success?? Will it really spoil "your" Porsche??
Wait for it to be released, drive it, look at it in the flesh. Try to put your preconceptions to one side and give it a fair chance...... you never know it might just be a success....
I won't be signing any "dump Freddy" petition.
Why?
He knows more about the motor industry than all the signatories of any petition combined might hope to - and most importantly has proved it over the last 10 years.
Porsche is in the best Financial health it has ever been in - because of him.
The current range of P-Cars are the most capable ever produced and are universally acclaimed as the leaders of each class of vehicle they produce - like or loathe the idea on an SUV this will be the case with the Cayenne too. All under his stewardship.
The "ranch" has not been bet on the Success of the SUV - analyse the company figures if you doubt this.
The motorsport budget has been very intelligently reigned in - competing with the likes of Daimler Chrysler in pouring cash down the world's largest plughole of irrelevant hybrid F1 carbonfibre tubs with roofs is fine for multinationals with little financial sense, not a small company like Porsche. The Racer's Group 996 winning it's class at Le Mans having only required a change of brake pads, tyres and fluids means a hell of a lot more to me than any Audi R8.
I don't believe Porsche would fare better if owned by VAG or any other of the large motor groups - in fact I think it would be the death of it. Look at Jaguar and compare it with BMW.
And a plea to all those who seemingly want Porsche to fail with the Cayenne - stand back and think about what you are wishing for - is it really so terrible if the Cayenne is a success?? Will it really spoil "your" Porsche??
Wait for it to be released, drive it, look at it in the flesh. Try to put your preconceptions to one side and give it a fair chance...... you never know it might just be a success....
07-29-2002, 12:54 PM
#60
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Christian, you are spot-on. My impression (an observation, not a criticism) is that the arguments against the C posted herein are primarily based on the emotions, tastes and desires of those who clearly aren't buyers anyway.
They are "arguing from a conclusion" - that PAG should be doing something(s) else, that they don't like the C as a product niche, Fred S., or PAG doing anything except reliving the late 60's to early 90's.
What is revealed more than anything else is the a priori bias of our good friends, not the nature of the C as a niche transportation device.
In some parts of the world, some of us may actually utilize the C, optimally, sometimes. Pesonally, I like freedom of choice.
They are "arguing from a conclusion" - that PAG should be doing something(s) else, that they don't like the C as a product niche, Fred S., or PAG doing anything except reliving the late 60's to early 90's.
What is revealed more than anything else is the a priori bias of our good friends, not the nature of the C as a niche transportation device.
In some parts of the world, some of us may actually utilize the C, optimally, sometimes. Pesonally, I like freedom of choice.