2004 Cayenne 955 Turbo Upgrade Build Thread, Custom Manifolds, BW EFR 7163's
08-21-2017, 10:36 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The Heads themselves.
Per the factory literature the turbo heads are made of a different alloy than the non "T" heads. In addition, the intake ports are shaped differently. The Turbo heads also have sodium filled exhaust valves. In both heads the exhaust valves are shorter than the intake by .5 mm.
Both heads use a 6mm valve stem with a triple/radius groove keeper-lock. Actual spec is 5.94mm on the stem. Your in luck because this is not an uncommon size. Radius groove locks are considered by many to be the best design, triple is three times as good!
I don't have the data or science to back is up but I have the theory that the egt's in CTT's in real life are much higher than Porsche expected and that the sodium filled ex. valves actually hurt in the long run when overheated. You can do your own research but basicaly the sodium starts as a solid, melts at a certain temp to splash around and aid in heat transfer, and then at a certain temp turn into a gas which hurts heat transfer. It's just a guess and the few people that know why the guides might be an issue won't share the info with us.
Because the cost factor of the Porsche valves, my intended uses, and the failure I experienced, I chose to have Ferrea make me some valves from their Super-Alloy line . I chose to stay with the stock dimensions and head sizes. The Super-alloy valves do have a few advantages such as better backcuts and face cuts that will help flow around the head. They were just a tiny amount heavier than the stockers but that is to be expected with a solid stem. It was less than a few grams if I recall correctly.
Based on my conversations with Lozano Bros., the used heads that I purchased off ebay, my heads, and conversations with Brooks Elliot cylinder heads who did all my finish work, I am feeling like the weak link in the factory turbo heads are guides.
The factory guides are an unknown to me type of silicon bronze?
Porsche does not offer guides for purchase. I wanted to address this area knowing my intended uses and went with a company called "CHE" That has been around for quite a while and is well respected. CHE made me some custom guides with the same exact seal retention details as the stockers and of a much better bronze alloy.
I am using the factory stainless intake valves and bronze guides as mine were in great condition and new ones weren't needed. When you have 32 valves, springs, keepers, guides, and lifters to consider with all the machine work, things can get stupid-out-of-hand real quick.
I replaced all the seals, ex. guides, ex. valves, in. and ex. springs, and lifters. Brooks did an amazing job blueprinting the heads, surfacing them, and putting a trick cut on the seats. BTW, the seats were in great condition and did not appear to have sunk any. Though, at the time I did not have any brand new heads to compare against. Lozano's had this info and said they were going to take care of it for me. They used to buy new engines from Porsche for development. So in reality I do not know what the specs for the spring installed heights are and what lifter preload specs should be. If you look at the spec on my valve label from Ferrea for the exhaust valves you can see they were ordered @ .38mm longer than stock. I do not know if this was to leave room to grind the tips and set the installed heights, or if because the ex. valve heads were ordered slightly bigger to make up for the valves sitting up further off the seat or a combination of these and other factors. This is where I had to trust Lozano's. It really sucks that Porsche secreted all the most important specs on this engine and that the few people that do know tend to carry on the tradition. Here are the specs for the valves from the book and you can compare them at least to my exhaust valve spec to help make your own conclusions. I do know from talking to my two builders that Ben was supposed to set everything up the way it was supposed to be and left the seats alone to allow a little room for the valve job. Brooks took the least amount of material possible to get a good seat and he said they cleaned up really quick and he removed almost nothing. I think we removed around .004" all together when milling the heads. I can't find the paperwork but I remember it was close to that.
Back at home and before I assembled the heads I touched up the backsides of the seats on the short turn radius and just a few spots in the bowls. The sharp edge of the seats were sticking into the ports on the short turn radius and this can have a pretty good impact on velocity/flow. Short turn radius is considered to be one of the most important area's of a port. Other than that, the castings are really nice and I only wanted to exemplify what Porsche had given us. I did not change the port shapes or volume in any way.
Surface finish (RA/RZ) is really important when you are using MLS gaskets.
Exhaust port
Intake Port
And, lets talk about head fasteners for a min.
Ok, there isn't much to talk about. Well there IS but I don't want to turn this into a debate so I will stick to the facts.
The factory Bolts are m12-1.5x140.
The 957's (4.8) downsized to an m11 and a one piece head.
Factory bolts are a tourque angle design.
I drew up this diagram when I inquired about having some studs made. ARP just flat out wasn't interested and I didn't try to bribe them with money.
Raceware was super cool and did some estimating for me. Let's put it this way, I have the exact numbers in my emails somewhere but the jist was that 10 sets or less would be around $900 a set.
I want to thank Raceware for taking the time to look at my drawings and actually come up with a quote, and for that they will get the business if and when that time comes.
The 4.5 Two piece Cayenne head presents a challenge in that there is very little room for a nut and washer on top the stud. They said it could be done. Too many unknowns and after talking much with my builder about the science and doing research on my own I felt like we had a real shot at success with the factory 12mm Bolts. This time being on the "Bleeding Edge" of development felt like my but was going to end up bleeding.
Case Closed
Here are the Torque specs for the 4.5 head bolts straight from the Horses mouth. My Factory service manual had two different specs in two different spots.
This is the gospel:
Per the factory literature the turbo heads are made of a different alloy than the non "T" heads. In addition, the intake ports are shaped differently. The Turbo heads also have sodium filled exhaust valves. In both heads the exhaust valves are shorter than the intake by .5 mm.
Both heads use a 6mm valve stem with a triple/radius groove keeper-lock. Actual spec is 5.94mm on the stem. Your in luck because this is not an uncommon size. Radius groove locks are considered by many to be the best design, triple is three times as good!
I don't have the data or science to back is up but I have the theory that the egt's in CTT's in real life are much higher than Porsche expected and that the sodium filled ex. valves actually hurt in the long run when overheated. You can do your own research but basicaly the sodium starts as a solid, melts at a certain temp to splash around and aid in heat transfer, and then at a certain temp turn into a gas which hurts heat transfer. It's just a guess and the few people that know why the guides might be an issue won't share the info with us.
Because the cost factor of the Porsche valves, my intended uses, and the failure I experienced, I chose to have Ferrea make me some valves from their Super-Alloy line . I chose to stay with the stock dimensions and head sizes. The Super-alloy valves do have a few advantages such as better backcuts and face cuts that will help flow around the head. They were just a tiny amount heavier than the stockers but that is to be expected with a solid stem. It was less than a few grams if I recall correctly.
Based on my conversations with Lozano Bros., the used heads that I purchased off ebay, my heads, and conversations with Brooks Elliot cylinder heads who did all my finish work, I am feeling like the weak link in the factory turbo heads are guides.
The factory guides are an unknown to me type of silicon bronze?
Porsche does not offer guides for purchase. I wanted to address this area knowing my intended uses and went with a company called "CHE" That has been around for quite a while and is well respected. CHE made me some custom guides with the same exact seal retention details as the stockers and of a much better bronze alloy.
I am using the factory stainless intake valves and bronze guides as mine were in great condition and new ones weren't needed. When you have 32 valves, springs, keepers, guides, and lifters to consider with all the machine work, things can get stupid-out-of-hand real quick.
I replaced all the seals, ex. guides, ex. valves, in. and ex. springs, and lifters. Brooks did an amazing job blueprinting the heads, surfacing them, and putting a trick cut on the seats. BTW, the seats were in great condition and did not appear to have sunk any. Though, at the time I did not have any brand new heads to compare against. Lozano's had this info and said they were going to take care of it for me. They used to buy new engines from Porsche for development. So in reality I do not know what the specs for the spring installed heights are and what lifter preload specs should be. If you look at the spec on my valve label from Ferrea for the exhaust valves you can see they were ordered @ .38mm longer than stock. I do not know if this was to leave room to grind the tips and set the installed heights, or if because the ex. valve heads were ordered slightly bigger to make up for the valves sitting up further off the seat or a combination of these and other factors. This is where I had to trust Lozano's. It really sucks that Porsche secreted all the most important specs on this engine and that the few people that do know tend to carry on the tradition. Here are the specs for the valves from the book and you can compare them at least to my exhaust valve spec to help make your own conclusions. I do know from talking to my two builders that Ben was supposed to set everything up the way it was supposed to be and left the seats alone to allow a little room for the valve job. Brooks took the least amount of material possible to get a good seat and he said they cleaned up really quick and he removed almost nothing. I think we removed around .004" all together when milling the heads. I can't find the paperwork but I remember it was close to that.
Back at home and before I assembled the heads I touched up the backsides of the seats on the short turn radius and just a few spots in the bowls. The sharp edge of the seats were sticking into the ports on the short turn radius and this can have a pretty good impact on velocity/flow. Short turn radius is considered to be one of the most important area's of a port. Other than that, the castings are really nice and I only wanted to exemplify what Porsche had given us. I did not change the port shapes or volume in any way.
Surface finish (RA/RZ) is really important when you are using MLS gaskets.
Exhaust port
Intake Port
And, lets talk about head fasteners for a min.
Ok, there isn't much to talk about. Well there IS but I don't want to turn this into a debate so I will stick to the facts.
The factory Bolts are m12-1.5x140.
The 957's (4.8) downsized to an m11 and a one piece head.
Factory bolts are a tourque angle design.
I drew up this diagram when I inquired about having some studs made. ARP just flat out wasn't interested and I didn't try to bribe them with money.
Raceware was super cool and did some estimating for me. Let's put it this way, I have the exact numbers in my emails somewhere but the jist was that 10 sets or less would be around $900 a set.
I want to thank Raceware for taking the time to look at my drawings and actually come up with a quote, and for that they will get the business if and when that time comes.
The 4.5 Two piece Cayenne head presents a challenge in that there is very little room for a nut and washer on top the stud. They said it could be done. Too many unknowns and after talking much with my builder about the science and doing research on my own I felt like we had a real shot at success with the factory 12mm Bolts. This time being on the "Bleeding Edge" of development felt like my but was going to end up bleeding.
Case Closed
Here are the Torque specs for the 4.5 head bolts straight from the Horses mouth. My Factory service manual had two different specs in two different spots.
This is the gospel:
Last edited by J'sWorld; 08-22-2017 at 04:20 AM.
The following users liked this post:
madburg (04-04-2022)
08-22-2017, 11:45 AM
#32
Hahaha. I think it was a good call not to take the $900 bet, unless you plan on removing the heads a lot. Here's to the power gods that the heads won't lift with the stock fasteners on 4 digit hp!
Just like with all of your other choices, it seems to be extremely well researched and thought out. Kind of surprising that Porsche would go to smaller head bolts on the 4.8! Especially a bastard size like m11.
08-22-2017, 02:08 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hahaha. I think it was a good call not to take the $900 bet, unless you plan on removing the heads a lot. Here's to the power gods that the heads won't lift with the stock fasteners on 4 digit hp!
Just like with all of your other choices, it seems to be extremely well researched and thought out. Kind of surprising that Porsche would go to smaller head bolts on the 4.8! Especially a bastard size like m11.
Just like with all of your other choices, it seems to be extremely well researched and thought out. Kind of surprising that Porsche would go to smaller head bolts on the 4.8! Especially a bastard size like m11.
Biggest turn off even more than the price on the head studs was the high likelyhood they would need an initial and periodic retorque. That was not going to work for me. Plus when my sleeves were done the finish hone was based upon the stock fasteners.
08-22-2017, 06:24 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thank you for the support Brainz! I feel like it's a small audience. The posting of all this is a lot of extra work. I want the audience to be there of course because I'm certainly not doing it for me.
The whole Syvec's thing with the money basicly sits in escrow so to speak until we have a plan to pull the trigger and move. If at some time it doesn't go thru then I will get with the contributors to re-evaluate and issue refunds if need be. So, yes I want to promote that but it not the sole intention of this thread to do so.
I know years ago when I first started contemplating this build I would have given my left nut (I'm partial to the right) to have access to ths type of information. I think that in the future there will be those who benefit from it. I am also trying to include some generalized content that even average owners can benefit from.
The whole Syvec's thing with the money basicly sits in escrow so to speak until we have a plan to pull the trigger and move. If at some time it doesn't go thru then I will get with the contributors to re-evaluate and issue refunds if need be. So, yes I want to promote that but it not the sole intention of this thread to do so.
I know years ago when I first started contemplating this build I would have given my left nut (I'm partial to the right) to have access to ths type of information. I think that in the future there will be those who benefit from it. I am also trying to include some generalized content that even average owners can benefit from.
08-22-2017, 08:25 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Lifters- aka Hydraulic bucket tappets
Let us talk about lifters for a minute. I would like to share with you what I was able to figure out here. I will try not to rant too much but this subject got me all torqued up. You deserve to know the truth. I am not going to ever name names. What I see with tuners, builders, vendors, etc., and exotics in particular is a lot of fear mongering and misinformation put out there on purpose. Why? This drives business. The sad part is that some of the people that do this, a select few, also are some of the people that have development and data that I respect the most. This makes for even a greater internal conflict. What you will find and what a select few of you already know is that some of the best builders, tuners, etc., do not advertise on these types of forums. Or, anywhere for that matter. They don't have to. They have a reputation that brings repeat business and referrals.
Do your homework!
Lifters from Porsche are quite expensive in the range of $35-$50 each x 32. In my quest to find a cheaper but acceptable route I came across a bunch of threads where other Porsche model owners were trying to figure out the same thing, how to cross reference all these different manufacturers and if the lifters were indeed the same internally and externally. Seems that Porsche has several models that use the same Porsche part #. From what I can tell these are all the models that use this Porsche part #:
99610504172
Boxster 1997-04 - Engine Boxster 2005-08 - Engine
Cayman 2006-08 - Engine 911 1998-05 - Engine
911 1998-05 - Engine 911 Turbo/GT2 2001-05 - Engine
911 2005-08 - Engine Cayenne 2003-06 - Engine
Lozano Bros actually used BMW lifters in their builds.
What really makes me mad is that while looking through these threads (mostly Porsche) I saw some responses from what are considered respectable people in the industry that were totally B.S. as it applies to this particular lifter and Porsche in general. I read a gamut of nonsense such as research that was done on individual lifters, variations in crown, internal plunger design, etc. The jist of all this was to steer you, the good people, in the wrong direction. To separate you from your money. Now I am NOT saying that there aren't different lifters for different applications. What I am saying is that hydraulic lifters have been around a long long time.
Concerning hydraulic bucket tappets per the apllication of the Cayenne, there are only like two or three different designs here irregardless of the manufacturer and one of them is a solid lifter which does not apply to us.
Again, you bought a vehicle that was between 110k and 140k new and now your lucky if its worth 15k in showroom condition. The price of parts isn't going down, only up! This isn't going to be a cakewalk and you MUST do your homework!
Ok. Rant over. This is what I came up with.
Porsche part # 99610504172
=
INA part # 11321748884
INA was the supplier to Porsche on these lifters. Now you can buy this lifter under about ten different brand names. I cant tell you what you will get in the box except for with the INA's.
This is what I pulled out of my engine that was 100% factory sealed.
Guess what I got in the mail when I ordered INA part # 11321748884?
The same G-D thing
What did I pay? Around $11 each. Same part # stamped on the bottom. Same design. Same same same!
Your welcome.
Now I am going to step down off my
Let us talk about lifters for a minute. I would like to share with you what I was able to figure out here. I will try not to rant too much but this subject got me all torqued up. You deserve to know the truth. I am not going to ever name names. What I see with tuners, builders, vendors, etc., and exotics in particular is a lot of fear mongering and misinformation put out there on purpose. Why? This drives business. The sad part is that some of the people that do this, a select few, also are some of the people that have development and data that I respect the most. This makes for even a greater internal conflict. What you will find and what a select few of you already know is that some of the best builders, tuners, etc., do not advertise on these types of forums. Or, anywhere for that matter. They don't have to. They have a reputation that brings repeat business and referrals.
Do your homework!
Lifters from Porsche are quite expensive in the range of $35-$50 each x 32. In my quest to find a cheaper but acceptable route I came across a bunch of threads where other Porsche model owners were trying to figure out the same thing, how to cross reference all these different manufacturers and if the lifters were indeed the same internally and externally. Seems that Porsche has several models that use the same Porsche part #. From what I can tell these are all the models that use this Porsche part #:
99610504172
Boxster 1997-04 - Engine Boxster 2005-08 - Engine
Cayman 2006-08 - Engine 911 1998-05 - Engine
911 1998-05 - Engine 911 Turbo/GT2 2001-05 - Engine
911 2005-08 - Engine Cayenne 2003-06 - Engine
Lozano Bros actually used BMW lifters in their builds.
What really makes me mad is that while looking through these threads (mostly Porsche) I saw some responses from what are considered respectable people in the industry that were totally B.S. as it applies to this particular lifter and Porsche in general. I read a gamut of nonsense such as research that was done on individual lifters, variations in crown, internal plunger design, etc. The jist of all this was to steer you, the good people, in the wrong direction. To separate you from your money. Now I am NOT saying that there aren't different lifters for different applications. What I am saying is that hydraulic lifters have been around a long long time.
Concerning hydraulic bucket tappets per the apllication of the Cayenne, there are only like two or three different designs here irregardless of the manufacturer and one of them is a solid lifter which does not apply to us.
Again, you bought a vehicle that was between 110k and 140k new and now your lucky if its worth 15k in showroom condition. The price of parts isn't going down, only up! This isn't going to be a cakewalk and you MUST do your homework!
Ok. Rant over. This is what I came up with.
Porsche part # 99610504172
=
INA part # 11321748884
INA was the supplier to Porsche on these lifters. Now you can buy this lifter under about ten different brand names. I cant tell you what you will get in the box except for with the INA's.
This is what I pulled out of my engine that was 100% factory sealed.
Guess what I got in the mail when I ordered INA part # 11321748884?
The same G-D thing
What did I pay? Around $11 each. Same part # stamped on the bottom. Same design. Same same same!
Your welcome.
Now I am going to step down off my
08-22-2017, 10:02 PM
#37
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Spring Lake, NJ, US of A
Posts: 10,085
Received 1,140 Likes
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Great info - but not a huge surprise. Porsche doesn't make things like that.
I bet they don't make the camshafts. We know they don't make plugs/coils/sensors/etc. We know they don't make timing chains, Variocam adjusters, belts, turbos, oil filters, water pumps. They probably don't make pistons/rings/connecting rods/bearings. They basically bolt on parts from suppliers who make something suitable for their needs.
And if they use "stock" sort of parts - usually it's possible to track down who else used the same part and see if it will exchange. In this case - it's a direct exchange - best kind as long as the lifters are of a quality that suits the need (from Porsche or the OE supplier.)
The clue it's a "stock" part is often the part# - since Porsche likes to make up numbers with the vehicle designation as the first 3 numbers - you can see where the part was first used by them. Makes it easier to track down the correct parts on the aftermarket.
I bet they don't make the camshafts. We know they don't make plugs/coils/sensors/etc. We know they don't make timing chains, Variocam adjusters, belts, turbos, oil filters, water pumps. They probably don't make pistons/rings/connecting rods/bearings. They basically bolt on parts from suppliers who make something suitable for their needs.
And if they use "stock" sort of parts - usually it's possible to track down who else used the same part and see if it will exchange. In this case - it's a direct exchange - best kind as long as the lifters are of a quality that suits the need (from Porsche or the OE supplier.)
The clue it's a "stock" part is often the part# - since Porsche likes to make up numbers with the vehicle designation as the first 3 numbers - you can see where the part was first used by them. Makes it easier to track down the correct parts on the aftermarket.
08-22-2017, 10:23 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Great info - but not a huge surprise. Porsche doesn't make things like that.
I bet they don't make the camshafts. We know they don't make plugs/coils/sensors/etc. We know they don't make timing chains, Variocam adjusters, belts, turbos, oil filters, water pumps. They probably don't make pistons/rings/connecting rods/bearings. They basically bolt on parts from suppliers who make something suitable for their needs.
And if they use "stock" sort of parts - usually it's possible to track down who else used the same part and see if it will exchange. In this case - it's a direct exchange - best kind as long as the lifters are of a quality that suits the need (from Porsche or the OE supplier.)
The clue it's a "stock" part is often the part# - since Porsche likes to make up numbers with the vehicle designation as the first 3 numbers - you can see where the part was first used by them. Makes it easier to track down the correct parts on the aftermarket.
I bet they don't make the camshafts. We know they don't make plugs/coils/sensors/etc. We know they don't make timing chains, Variocam adjusters, belts, turbos, oil filters, water pumps. They probably don't make pistons/rings/connecting rods/bearings. They basically bolt on parts from suppliers who make something suitable for their needs.
And if they use "stock" sort of parts - usually it's possible to track down who else used the same part and see if it will exchange. In this case - it's a direct exchange - best kind as long as the lifters are of a quality that suits the need (from Porsche or the OE supplier.)
The clue it's a "stock" part is often the part# - since Porsche likes to make up numbers with the vehicle designation as the first 3 numbers - you can see where the part was first used by them. Makes it easier to track down the correct parts on the aftermarket.
If you take two identical parts, let's say a water pump for example. It is completely possible that even though the same manufacturer has produced both pumps for the same application, that the one manufactured for Porsche was held to a higher quality control standard or "spec'd" differently that the one offered to the aftermarket later. This is one of those area's where the community's feedback comes into play. People buy this stuff and compare it to the originals or come across these parts situations and report whether the replacement is up to snuff. It is a long time consuming process that requires the feedback of the consumer to be made public so that the word can get out. Otherwise we have no way of knowing until we personally come into the situation.
08-23-2017, 12:10 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thank you for the support Brainz! I feel like it's a small audience. The posting of all this is a lot of extra work. I want the audience to be there of course because I'm certainly not doing it for me.
The whole Syvec's thing with the money basicly sits in escrow so to speak until we have a plan to pull the trigger and move.
The whole Syvec's thing with the money basicly sits in escrow so to speak until we have a plan to pull the trigger and move.
One ignorant question: Why Syvecs versus AEM or another engine management system? I mention AEM only because I've seen the good work TurboKraft does with them and also noted they have a kit that is 997 plug n play, and I seem to recall the 997 and 955 use a similar Motronic (7.8, I think?) - - Apologies if I'm wrong on the ECU commonality - - too lazy to look it up right now.
08-23-2017, 01:54 PM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thank you for again. Go Fund Me has been funded and I encourage other lurkers to assist if possible. Lots of potential benefits from this (transmission software anyone?).
One ignorant question: Why Syvecs versus AEM or another engine management system? I mention AEM only because I've seen the good work TurboKraft does with them and also noted they have a kit that is 997 plug n play, and I seem to recall the 997 and 955 use a similar Motronic (7.8, I think?) - - Apologies if I'm wrong on the ECU commonality - - too lazy to look it up right now.
One ignorant question: Why Syvecs versus AEM or another engine management system? I mention AEM only because I've seen the good work TurboKraft does with them and also noted they have a kit that is 997 plug n play, and I seem to recall the 997 and 955 use a similar Motronic (7.8, I think?) - - Apologies if I'm wrong on the ECU commonality - - too lazy to look it up right now.
Because Syvec's has the tables, CAN control, Boolean Conditions, and Hysteresis capabilities that the others don't. Funny you didn't mention Motec? I feel that when you get up to this level of control that platforms such as the Cayenne, GTR, Huracan, 996/7, Ferrari, Audi demand, there are only two real options. It's all about the control, safeguards,options, and integration into existing manufacturer control that allows us to have our cake and eat it too.
Unfortunatly for Motec, their pricing structure and liscencing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
08-23-2017, 03:56 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Got it. I've not done any ECU cross shopping, but have some familiarity with AEM from some other projects I follow - - while AEM seemed pretty customizable to my uninformed eye, I could see other systems being much more integrated with European vehicle management systems.
08-28-2017, 03:05 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Finished fabbing all the intercooler mounting and piping yesterday. Now I have a lot of welding to do.
TEASER
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ElSpoon958 (03-06-2022)
09-01-2017, 07:20 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
A couple more pics to keep ya'll in the game.........
Down-pipes are all fabbed up back to the flex section that will be in front of the trans. crossmember. 304ss 3"tubing and flanges/v bands.
I'm only running a #7 cup/gas lense so the colors aren't quite there. That shi* dissapears after a heat cycle anyhow and it's not like I'm going to post them on instagram weldporn
Getting close! Stay tuned!
Down-pipes are all fabbed up back to the flex section that will be in front of the trans. crossmember. 304ss 3"tubing and flanges/v bands.
I'm only running a #7 cup/gas lense so the colors aren't quite there. That shi* dissapears after a heat cycle anyhow and it's not like I'm going to post them on instagram weldporn
Getting close! Stay tuned!