NJ-GT

You're not alone. I have the same mindset.

I like to compete for driving skills, not for car preparation. My Fiat is a horrible autoX car, too wide (widest car at National level by a good chunk), monster long wheelbase, and mid-engine (not good for autoX, you want agility not stability for autoX).

However, I enjoy it a lot, and for local events it is more of a driver's level than actual car prep, with a few exceptions (5-10 good drivers with good cars). The car runs in SSP (Super Street Prepared).

My Coxster on the other, ran on a Stock class. With the exception of a front sway bar, wheels in the same size and offset as available from the showroom, and Hoosier tires, the car was bone stock. The car was competitive in class.

If I could take this same Coxster, on street tires, on stock wheels (or cheaper aftermarket wheels of the same size, not to ruin my Porsche wheels), and just a bolt-on sway bar, it would be awesome. Arrive-and-Drive, no need for trailer, or dedicated race tires that don't last and have no other use, less hassle, and more competitive.

I fully support the Stock class going back to real street tires, there are too many SCCA classes for racing tires. Even if the Stock classes go to street tires, the majority of SCCA AutoX classes require racing tires.

sjfehr

That's why they're changing the name from Stock to Street, mgent. The original allowances were of necessity decades ago when the class was created- mufflers rusted out, shocks should be quickly shot, and it made sense to allow aftermarket. Not sure where the sway bar allowance came from, but it's a cheap one-time mod that has significant handling changes and safety benefits with (unlike springs) nearly zero impact to the streetability of a car. Put all this together, though, and the cars aren't exactly stock.

It hasn't been "stock" for a very long time, but people were getting hung up on the name. Hence the new street proposal. Which has since been watered down so that the only thing that's really changing is no more r-comps.

burglar

Just being a pita (as usual) but don't MR cars have very low polar moments of inertia, making them inherently more agile than cars with the heavy bits on the ends?

Anyways, I think the changes are overdue. "Stock" cars showing up on trailers is a bit nuts, although this will ALWAYS happen. People are inherently competitive, and will exploit every advantage they car. Take away custom shocks, people will buy 10 pairs of OEM ones, dyno test them all, and hand pick the best ones.

That said, there is also a difference in perception vs reality. We all know that until you get to the highest levels it's 80% driver / 20% car. Joe New Guy sees a special order everything delete model on remote reservoir shocks and sponsor stickers everywhere blow him away and think that his loaded off the factory floor model is why he was 6 seconds behind. In reality, if the drivers swapped cars Joe New Guy would still be 6 seconds behind.

There is a very large difference between local and national level competition, and the SCCA has the tough job of finding a way to balance the needs of both. They need to attract new people and get them hooked - they are the future of the sport. At the same time, they need to retain the current people and not tick them off.

mgent

So Stock goes away, and you need a prepped car to have a chance? That's the part that seems backwards to me... If the stock guys want to prep their cars, they can go a bit further to a 'limited prep' class - once someone is upgrading, its an easier decision to upgrade further, vs the decision for the 1st upgrade... slippery slope I fully recognize, but the reality for most...

abqautoxer

Show me the car club that deals with all marquees and has a bone stock class and then levels the competition. There just aren't many of them because it's even harder to equalize with those types of limitations and in some cases can get very expensive as previously mentioned.

Everyone has a different idea what an entry level class should be. In the end not a lot of people enjoy autocross format to begin with so the pool of people you start with is very small anyway.

burglar

That's the thing - you don't HAVE to do that. Right now, as is, you can buy $2k/corner remote reservoir double adjustable shocks, have custom ultralight wheels made that push the offset allowance to the limit, run a front or rear swaybar large enough to tear out a subframe, run a 1lb exhaust turn down right after the cat, and run an alignment that would destroy a set a street tires in 5,000 miles, let alone be dangerous on a highway. Then have a fresh set of sticker Hoosiers for each run. (Don't laugh, this has been done.)

99.9% competitors you will see at a local level will not go this far. Many of the cars double as daily drivers. And, as referenced above, all the trickest stuff in the world isn't going to help a new driver go faster. A National level driver in a rental auto Camry would blow a new driver in a 991 turbo S out of the water.

The big difference maker, though, is tires. Right now Hoosier A6 cannot be driven on the highway, at all in the rain, and are about 5x the cost per run as the latest 200tw reasonable to daily street tires. I don't know what version of "street" will pass, but you will be able to take your truly from the factory stock car, replace the tires with a hot but daily friendly tire, and be 95% give or take to the performance of a fully prepped car. Throw in a swaybar, tweak the alignment a little, (both inexpensive) and get to 98%.

sjfehr

No, in reality, they'd switch cars and Joe New Guy would end up maybe actually competitive because the car still DOES make a difference as do the tires. Give Joe New Guy some sticker A6s and a well prepped car and some time to get used to it, and swap cars, and Joe New Guy will get a ton faster- 2 seconds for the tires, and maybe 1-2 for the car itself. Give that to Joe and take it away from the great driver... even if Joe is a 3-second slower driver, if his car is now 3 seconds faster than Bob Jacket Wearer's, he's got a fighting chance.

There is a HUGE perception difference between getting buried 6 seconds deep in your class and just 2 seconds.

abqautoxer

So you think Joe New Guy is 3 seconds slower than a national champion? Are we talking a 15 second course or something shorter?

burglar

I chortled.

NJ-GT

Confusing agility with stability. The MR are more stable, the front engine RWD cars are more agile, everything else being equal.

Mid-Engine cars resist rotation (drift on the rear end) more than cars with front engines and RWD. Rotation is key for AutoX.

On a racetrack I would take a stable car. On an autoX I would take a car that rotates.

Yes, you can tune a mid-engine car to rotate. But having the same car, same weight, same size, with more weight in the front axle, would work better for AutoX.

Check the National champion cars in Stock classes for the last 10 years, in classes where there are both types of cars.

Mid-Engine cars are great on slaloms, Front engine RWD cars are awesome on sweepers.

Then there is the 911, and its pendulum rear weight, it rotates nicely, the rear weight helps tractions, and it slaloms very well.

abqautoxer

You couldn't be more wrong about mid-engine being the least agile. This is an example of mental reasoning trying to argue against basic physics regarding objections in motion.

Rotmilky

I thought I might offer up the opinion of Joe New Guy since I am that person. To date, I have done a total of 6 events, the first one I ever entered was April. I did the first 4 in novice class and the last two in the car's correct class of SS. My car is a 2005 997 C2. You can check my credentials if you like. I'm the lone 997 showing up. http://rgrscca.com/results.htm Yes, that's me getting beaten by Miatas, and S2000s, and even a HS class car on my first event. Also a Cayman generally manhandling me. So, you can get an idea of where I am and where my impressions are coming from.

I think I've done sorta decent for a beginner. I started out maybe 6-7 seconds off the SS class average and have managed to reduce that to maybe 1-2 seconds behind the rest of SS for my region. At least I'm not embarrassing SS class at the moment. The top guys are probably a vette or two running Rcomps. They're still beating me by maybe 4-5 seconds. Not sure of any other mods. But I'm still getting beaten by Miatas, S2000s, an RX-8 and on the occasion a stock Forrester that's the size of a small bus. So, while I think the RComps are an advantage to the vettes, I certainly realize at this point in time that my skills as a driver need to improve such that I'm not getting soundly beaten by cars with half the horsepower and 1/5 the cost of mine. So as a new driver, I am sorta ambivalent about someone entering my class with a trailered car that they've dumped $30K into and are still in stock class. Heck, I'm ambivalent that I've possibly chosen one of the worst cars for SS class. I'm out there trying to learn to drive better.

As Joe New Guy, I love the 'run what you brung' mentality that I think is what 'stock' should embody. With that in mind and looking to the future and possibly thinking about being more competitive in my class, things become a little more depressing. Not because necessarily there might be a guy with 20K in shocks on his car and rcomps that trailers his car to the AX. The main problem is I have the wrong car for my class. No matter what class there is, there are 1-2 cars that are considered the 'it' car to have. In SS class, we can argue those two cars, but certainly a 997 C2 is not in that discussion. So first I need to swap cars....and that is where I think most Joe New Guys are lost and stop AXing.

Why? Because by my 2nd race people started recognizing my car and offering helpful advice. AXers are the most helpful people I know. Really genuinely well intentioned people. One of the first pieces of advice that I got was that I needed to get a different car for that class. Usually, it's along the lines of 'if you want to run Porsche, you should think a 996 GT3...but you know, how about a Z06. They're really really fast and do well at nationals'. The comments aren't meant to be malicious, but ultimately the affect is either people want to do AX and probably go get the 'car of the class' or they drift on with life with their sucky classed car never to AX again. Heck, I've already found myself looking at GT3s. Then I come to my senses and realize I can't push my C2 to the limits on the road friggin EVER and decide I need a GT3 like I need a hole in my head. It's this 'you need a the it car' mentality that I think is both driving away new guys as well as being responsible for the near uniform car lists in classes. You quickly realize if you're in CS and you're not in a Miata, showing up is a waste of time. And voila, you're left with a sea of Miatas.

So, fundamentally in this Joe New Guy's mind, I think what would help newbies the most would be to figure out how to make more cars equal in a class. I have no idea how you do this, but if there were 15 really great cars in a class, AX would be more of a 'run what you brung' race and more people would stick around. Realizing that 'run what you brung' equates to an S2000 really causes AX to become less fun if you don't have a S2000.

Do I find Rcomps in SS baffling? Yes. If you can't drive the car there, why on earth is it in stock class? That said, I can buy a set of RComps. They're not expensive. I can buy a trailer. I can haul my car. I can fix that problem if I need to. That said, my car is simply a weekend toy for me. I don't daily drive it. I might change my mind if I was running a daily driver.

Do I find 20K shocks in Stock baffling? Yes. Insane. Why on earth this is allowed I don't know. It can be fixed pretty easily. So I don't see it as an overall long term problem. Maybe limit the aftermarket part expense on a car to less than $500 (not including tires). Hard to really do much to a car for only $500, and pretty much anyone else racing there can probably afford to do that. Should at least limit just how creatively people can shoehorn their mods within the rule structure.

Keep in mind that these comments and suggestions come from a new guy, with the wrong car who would like to go to nationals some day without 1) getting a new car and 2) spending any more money. I may change my mind when I foolheartedly buy a GT3 in a couple of years to have a decent car for my class, then drop another 20K on shocks.

Edit: Please note the 'foolhearted' comment above was not meant to imply anyone doing such was foolhearted. It was meant as a reference to my current state of mind where I am both simultaneously thinking I don't need a GT3 while finding myself browsing the Rennlist GT3 listings.

abqautoxer

Nice to see you chime in Von. Yes you have done very well for a beginner and yes your 997 is not competitive in SS. The problem as you see it clearly is how to make more cars competitive in each class which unfortunately when we are talking fractions of a second at the national level, its just not possible without per car allowances which isn't realistic. The SEB at this point is driving to have less classes, so less cars are going to be competitive, it's just the way it is. One thing for you in particular is to consider running PCA events. You would be more competitive and in our region they are great bunch of folks and get a lot of runs per event.

FWIW, my Z06 has $1200 shocks and I do run the wrong R comps (v710). High end shocks are $5000/set, not $20,000. The problem is in the number of adjustments. If you give someone any allowance, they will maximize it. Give them no adjustments but can be aftermarket shocks, I can spend thousands having them rebuilt until I find the optimal average setting. Single adjustable, I'll do the same for the compression and only adjust rebound, etc.

Personally, I believe autocross will never be universally appealing and our numbers will generally hover where they do like most specific hobbies like this. They are just a limited number of people willing to spend their weekends the way we do, for the money and time commitment that we do. I've been in this region for 14 years, people come and go but more or less the PCA and SCCA clubs stay about the same numbers over the years with the same core 25-50% that stay the same.

NJ-GT

Yeah right, if physics are that right, the Nissan GTR would not be doing the damage that it's doing on every racetrack to 1000 lbs lighter cars.

Tell me of a production car (winged kid's gokarts P/M classes not included) with mid-engine and RWD that outruns a front-engine RWD equivalent car (weight/size).

The Elise does not apply, it enters the kid's gokart category with its 1/2 weight (1800 lbs) of a standard car, it should be in the exclusion list, even more on street tires.

abqautoxer

Because you seem to be choosing to ignore details. Power, wheel size and/or tire size problems, camber limitations, lack of an LSD, which class they are in, etc. all factor in and saying F/R is superior in autox compared to M/R is plain silly.