NJ-GT

No need for a GT3. The 997 Carrera S 3.8 is a very capable car.

It might not be the top car for the class, but it is up there in the upper mid-pack. At National level (SCCA AutoX National Championship), a 997S would not win the class (unless it rains both days, where it stands a good chance). At local level, with a good driver, it should do well.

At local events, my recommendation is to convince one of your local hot shoes (a national level driver) and co-drive with that driver for one event. You'll see the gap between you right now, and you in the future.

I sometimes run on street tires, because despite of having a pile of race tires, and a trailer, and a tow truck, it is just a hassle to load/unload twice, using the trailer adds 4 hours to my autoX day, which I prefer to use on something else.

So, when I run on street tires, I just multiply my result by 0.975 and that gives me a ball park of where I would end up with Hoosier Grooved slicks (called DOT tires for no reason, they are race tires and not street legal).

Get a good set of street tires for the 997S, and install a cheap and affordable 997.2 GT3 front sway bar with the drop links from Tarett engineering, Ira @ Tarett sells the complete kit. No other modifications needed, keep your stock shocks because they are very good. Just add the sway bar and set it in the middle hole.

For tires, get the Yokohama ADV-08 on 255/30R19 and 295/30R19. These sizes will balance the car. I personally prefer to have a dedicated set of wheels for my autoX tires (even for street tires), not to use up my autoX street tires with road miles. You don't want the wear of street use on your autoX tires, and you don't want the wear of autoX on your DD tires. But if you are sticking to just one set of wheels, you will like the ADV-08. These tires are very fast and available on 19". The RE-11 is also very fast, but slower than the ADV-08 and they don't make the RE-11 (better than the RE-050 or PS2 that came with the 997S) in 255/30 or 265/30.

Rotmilky

Oh. Didn't know that was you, Hi Tom! Seems I should pay attention to locations and aliases a bit more.

Thanks for the suggestions on car setups, etc., NJ-GT. I have thought about some of those modifications, but at this point, I know there's more to be made up with driver skill. And that's free! So I hesitate to drop much money in this car with the though of moving to something else if I want to be competetive. Mine is the base C2, not even the C2S. Yea, I can dump more money in to get a bit more performance, but I think that money would be better served to put into a different car. And that's why the allowed changes in stock class don't bother me at the moment. I think most other novices can see that same line of reasoning. So I don't think Rcomp tires and shock allowances (I heard it was 5K per side, Tom, so that's how I got $20K) is going to make much difference in new guy attendance. Even a novice can look across the finals list and quickly realize that they're in need of some skills when a grocery delivery guy in a miniaturized Winnebago just beat them by a couple of seconds.

Anyway, my comments are merely to provide the viewpoint of what I think is the average new guy. I bought a car I thought might be fun (in my case, the base C2). I wanted to learn to drive it and tried an AX. Wow, what a fun sport and I'm learning to drive like a demon without hitting 3rd gear. I'd like to continue doing it.

And that's what I wanted to convey to the people who have been involved in the sport for a long time and will continue to influence the sports evolution. If you want more novice involvement for the long term, there needs to be a way to continue that involvement without getting a very specific car. I think that's where people are lost.

I believe that it's not a problem that can't be solved. A couple of ideas (from an idiot driving a 911 C2): maybe have car classing like UK soccer leagues. A car dominates a class, it bumps up a class next year. If it's a dog in a class, it drops next year. Average it out over all SCCA event times. If that were the case, the 911 C2 would probably drop to AS and the S2000 would bump up to AS (Eeek...that's a bad idea. I'd be outgunned by a Honda then). Maybe add weights to the cars (if the jr carts can do it...well I don't see that the full blown cars can't). Ok, honestly, I don't think my suggestions are real solutions but just my attempts at offering alternatives to stimulate thought. In any event, all the SCCA modifications I saw seemed relatively minor to me as a novice, which is what I thought they were geared at--attracting the novices. I doubt they'll make a difference in overall attendance levels.

mgent

Rotmilky - Great post. Sounds like you're having fun, which is how it starts - next will be tires, then swaybar, etc My suggestion, if you like your 997 C2, is keep it, and get a shifter kart to bring to events - both auto-x and kart tracks... Cheap, easy, fast - the most fun I've had at a auto-x, and while your class will be nothing, you can use pax, or whatever to compete...

I believe getting novices to show up is not the ultimate issue, it is getting them to come back. How many who AX for the first time, get beat down by 6/7/8 sec, come back again? If that conversion ratio gets higher, its better for the sport... If they come and get beat by 3 or 4 sec, do more come back to try? My comments about stock being stock are meant to limit the difference in performance, no tires, no shocks, etc, allowing that newbie in a 997C2 to feel like he is actually competing

abqautoxer

I think the problem will always be the same two limiting factors for the new guy. 1. Only a limited number of cars can be competitive. Most show up in one not competitive. 2. Only a few people like to spend their time the way we do. #2 will often be enough to override #1 but combined this is why we always will have retention problems, its the nature of the beast. A new guy will either just enjoy themselves enough they'll stay then have to decide what to do about their car. Many mod incorrectly and get further buried of actual performance vs class's potential performance (PAX). I try to always steer new people to stay as stock as possible for as long as possible and just learning to drive. If they suspect they are reaching the maximum potential out of the car, ask a fast guy/gal to drive and see the difference and perhaps change settings on the car based on feedback. I've been doing this all year with a BS S2000 who has won every local event his first full year and each time we analyze it, we find something either in his driving or his setup on the car to make it faster.

NJ-GT

There are more issues to the retention problems. I have friends that loved autocrossing, but can't deal with the work assignments. This is easily solved with paid workers, they could be drivers as well or dedicated staff, and a slight increase on entry fee of $15 won't take people away, as entry fee is the lowest expense.

Cars not competitive in a given class is an SCCA problem with classing cars properly, and something that can be resolved for most cars. If somebody shows up with a Volvo Station Wagon, there should be no expectations to be competitive in class, but if somebody shows up with a Mustang V6, Camaro, BRZ, STi, Civic, or any popular car, the car should be competitive.

The National office can take statistics from all the regions obtaining the make/model cars used in all the stock classes with frequency, rather than trying to class every car made in the last 30 years.

Increasing participation is about making the event more appealing, more fun. Drifting started from scratch in U.S. and did it, Car Shows did it, they cash on significant revenues, and the formula has been easy: Food Trucks, College Bands, Bikini Contests, something people want to pay to watch.

Nobody in a sane mind would pay to watch an autoX, not even the National Championship, but people pay $20 to watch drag races, or drifting, or even the Optima Challenge (an indicator that AutoX can be watched and paid to be watched). This is not an AutoX problem, it is the mindset of the SCCA administration, nobody would pay to watch the RunOff, but people pay to watch SpeedGT, Indy, F1, ALMS, and at the lower level of entry fees circle track, mud trucks, off-road, etc.

Then there is the extra kick to increase participation. Prize money. Add another $15 to the entry fee, and establish a payout for the Novice class drivers, and Stock class drivers based on number of entries in class. This has worked well on Drag Racing for events on Wednesdays and Fridays.



No spectators, no extra revenues, less appealing event.

NJ-GT

Another small advice. Send a letter to the SCCA. They re-class cars per member's requests.

Here is the link, you have to become an SCCA member.
http://www.sebscca.com/

The 3.6 997 from 2005-2012 should be in A-Stock. We already have the lighter and narrower 996 3.6 40th Anniversary (345hp) in A-Stock. The new 991 3.4 should also be in A-stock.

SuperStock should be for the 3.8 997 (whether they use the M97 or 9A1 engines), the 991S 3.8, and all the GT3.

sjfehr

National competitors complain that there are already too many classes, and it dilutes the competition and that there should be fewer classes because everyone who's serious can just go any buy whatever the car-to-have is. It's OK that cars get buried- sell it and buy a miata or an '89 civic if you want to be competitive. What??? You don't want to sell your 997.2 even though you could trade it for a CSP miata AND a trailer AND a tow vehicle to tow it??

I disagree with the "less classes" and "just buy the hot car" mindset; I think that's a horrible policy that's destroying fair competition and retention at the regional level, and is hurting the club overall. Maybe it's because I'm coming from the local perspective where individual classes of 1 or 2 competitors are meaningless, and indexed pax classes rule, but I think the better solution is MORE classes, spaced maybe .2-.3 seconds apart pax-wise, so that no car is buried and differences are "within the noise" so to speak, and every car is a competitive car. Nobody should ever have to sell their car to be competitive.

edfishjr

Take NJ-GT's advice: mod your car with the limited things you can do in Stock(Street) and by all means keep the car. You will have made your car the best it can be and can then focus on driving skill.

I fear that if you sell it for a GT-3 you will be only very marginally faster and will say to yourself, "Why did I go to all that trouble?"

It is clear that you (intellectually) recognize that driver skill is the real issue, but you don't emotionally get it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be perusing those GT-3 ads.

Your car is not that far off the others in the class. You are no where near ready to trophy at Nats. (Not saying you shouldn't go anyway.) Your goal should be to match the local hotshots.

I started 4 years ago exactly the same way.... with a CTS-V in FS trying to beat Mustang Shelby GTs and beat everyone else's PAX. The day I paxed 3rd in my region in that car (on good R-comps) was a watershed. Learn to drive the car you have and you will have a moment like that too.

knfeparty

You guys seen the new classing? No way the 996 will continue to be competitive in A-Street, nor the regular Cayman. Cayman S is now legal, as is C5Z06, vipers, S2000CRs...

A Street (AS)
Acura
NSX Alex Zanardi Signature Edition
Cadillac
XLR
Chevrolet
Corvette (C6 chassis, non-ZR1) (2005-13)
Corvette Z06 (C5 chassis) (2001-04)
Camaro ZL1 (2012-13)
Dodge
Viper (non-ACR) (2008-10)
Viper GTS (1996-2005)
Viper R/T (1992-2003)
Viper SRT-10 (2003-07)
Ford
Mustang Boss 302 (Non-Laguna Seca) (2012-13)
Mustang Shelby GT500 (2007-13)
Honda
S2000 (CR)
Lotus
Esprit Turbo (1996-2004)
Evora (non-supercharged) (2010-11)
Mazda
RX-7 (Turbo) (1993-95)
Pontiac
Solstice GXP (2007-09)
Porsche
911 (996 chassis) (1998-2005)
Boxster S (2005-08)
Boxster (non-S, non-Spyder) (2009-13)
Cayman (non-R, non-S) (2009-13)
Cayman S (2006-08)

PedalFaster

The Cayman S was always in A Stock, and the S2000 CR's moving up from ostensibly slower B Stock.

The theory behind moving the Corvettes and Vipers to AS is that they won't be as effective on street tires, but that seems like a big risk to me.

This is still a proposal, and thus still subject to change.

knfeparty

Oh I forgot the cayman s was already there. Brain hiccup. I wish they would just finalize the new rules so I could start prepping my car.

allen_skillicorn

Bringing this thread back to life since 2014 is coming fast. I need to do some maintenance on my 2001 986S, so I'd like to buy the camber plates that will legal next year sooner than later.

What plate do you recommend? I'm fairly new to the Porsche world, but not new to cars or autocross. I'm curious which plate gives me the most the negative camber. Other than max negative camber I will run fairly conservative toe settings to retain decent street manners. This type of setup has worked well for me in the past.

Is there something I'm missing since I don't know Porsche's as deeply as you guys?

abqautoxer

You'll want to go back and browse the later versions, the camber plates for Street class were dropped for a number of reasons.

sjfehr

The only significant new change besides 200TW tires is the allowance for wheel diameter to go +/-1", which increases the number of wheels we can run.

From the owner's manual ('04 986S):
OEM: 7.0x17 / 8.5x17
OEM: 7.5x18 / 9.0x18
OEM: 8.0x18 / 10.0x18

Which means I can potentially now run 8x17 / 10x17, which would be fantastic.

abqautoxer

The other worth mentioning, that got less press but probably affects few porsches is the new exhaust rule. No more dump tubes, exhaust must exit out the factory location at the bumper not under the car (simple translation of the rule).