Dr. Car

I am considering a number of different 911's for use as a street car & autocross car. I plan to put perhaps 10K mi/year on the car and do a lot of autocrosses plus the occasional track day. I'm focussing on newer 911s b/c I want something modern, polished, and a little bit luxurious (my last auto-x car was too stiff, loud, etc.). My plan is to get a keeper that I'll hold onto for quite a while.

Obviously I need to test drive these cars, but since autocrossing ability and competitiveness are important to me, I'd like to solicit opinions. Some data points as a basis for your opinions would be appreciated. And, comments on the relative desireability, resale value, reliability, etc., are not "off topic." And, feel free to make fun of the OP for being so undecisive.

1. 40th Anniv. 996 Carrera v. base 997 with PASM. These are closer in price than I would have thought, but finding a base 997 with PASM is not easy. The 40th Anniv. car was 345 hp, LSD, and sport suspension; the 997 is the next iteration with 325 hp, no LSD, but I think the PASM is a pretty brilliant suspension. Locally in PCA, the 996's and base 997's run in the same class. The 40th Anniv. car is special and rare, but I don't know how much its value will hold up if I put beaucoup miles on it.

2. 996TT v. 997S. The 996TT is a great bargain now that nice ones are priced from the $50's on up. They have dry sump, higher quality race-quality engine parts and transmission, tauter suspension, 415-450 hp. Any 911 Turbo has always been an iconic car to me. The TTs are heavy, but their ability to fit very large tires and AWD should distribute the tire wear pretty well. The 997S (not to mention 996 GT3) feel out of my price range, although I could borrow money to make it happen . Unfortunately, in local PCA auto-x the 996TT and 997S are classed together with the GT3 and GT3; of course, that could change.
Is PCCB worth a few tenths, consistently? I suspect PCCB might be worth more autocross lap time than the X50 or X51 packages.

racer

PCCB is not worth it at autocross. I don't know of any conclusive data that says PCCB brakes provide any benefit in an AX environment.

Not sure what your current AX experience is, but from what I can see, to make these cars VERY competitive on a national stage requires a large amout of money to make the suspensions work "right".

Now, if you are just going to your local PCA events, it might be another matter. You might want to see what people near you run and why they run what they do.

I've seen bone stock (except for Hoosier) 2.5L boxsters beat 2200lb, 240hp 911's. In the end, it will be the driver and NOT the car, that puts down fast times and wins his/her class. Buy the car you want to own/drive.

multi21

Totally disagree. The ceramics are MUCH MUCH lighter than the iron brakes and that unspring weight is HUGE in autoX. Check out the thread in the 996 GT3 forum on a guy who is looking to buy a GT3 and wondered about the PCCB's vs. iron. NJ-GT lists all the weights.

multi21

The specific thread is "Prospective GT3 buyer -- I need help". NJ references the SCCA Nationals and his thoughts on PCCB's.

racer

m3 pete.. I know Radomin (NJ-GT) from my days with NNJR PCA. He has spent much time and money developing his GT3. I don't doubt that the PCCBs reduce unsprung wieght (iirc, somewhere around 40lbs for the whole car?) Rad is also an SCCA National contender, not just an occasional autocrosser. He does likely close to 70 events/year. I didn't get the impression that the original poster was this type of enthusiast. For the last .005 seconds at Topeka, PCCBs may be worth it. For 10 AX /year on a "daily driver", it would seem that price premium could better spent on seat time and basic car set-up...

Also, I see Radomin is now running a 924S instead of his GT3...

earlyapex

I used to autocross my 40th. In stock form, the car exibits a large amount of understeer, which destroys its times. You have to turn PSM off or suffer from the car taking over at unpredictable times. The stock seats are worthless for this use and a race seat with harness will get you several seconds. I got my butt whipped regularly by Boxsters and early 911's. I was competetive against and usually beat regular 996's. The 996tt is a great platform. The AWD seams to be an advantage as I watched rookies lay down respectible times which I attribute to the extra grip offered by the AWD system.

All of these cars will understeer allot unless you put on a better suspension. This is very expensive. What's your budget? They can be competetive against other marque's. The king of the hill seams to be the Corvette.

The wet sump versus dry sump debate has been answered. Look at all of the wet sump 996's successfullly running in GrandAm and PCA.

Is PCCB worth it? Of course not. You will get more time from tires, and an appropriate restraint system (seat and harness). You will also risk having to replace them when you participate in DE's.

The 40th is not a rare car. It is a desireable car because it has a very nice combination of performance and luxury features at a great price. It also had a mechanical LSD with PSM, which had not been available on the 996 platform. The LSD works very well on the race track and autocross. Yes, the X51 option is real. The car accelerates like the devil. The engine is very strong all the way to the red line.

Don't think about car valuations. You're going to drive this thing.

The best bang for the buck will be a stock 996 C2. Even the post 02 models are going for great prices. The M030 sport suspension is too soft for autocross and track use. There are many other aftermarket suspension out there. Which one you chose will depend on the car classification that you want to end up in and how much ride quality you want to sacrifice. On that note, I found that my PSS9's improved the ride quality of my 40th over the M030 suspension that came on the car. The stock suspension was very harsh and unsufisticated. The electrics seats can come out for a race seat, but it is a hassle to switch back and forth between the two. You may want to get one with manual seats and switch them for euro GT3 items. These fit most average and big Ameicans. They are way to big for me. The brakes don't need any modifications for the autocross. You can upgrade the fluid and pad for track use.

Dr. Car

I'm somewhere inbetween the 10-autocross per year guy and the 70/yr. fanatic. I don't want a modified car b/c I want to be in stock class; modified classes ultimately require so many mods the car isn't nice on the street anymore, plus I get out of my depth trying to sort many variables of tuning on a modified car.

Seems to me from driving it that PASM is a pretty darn good system for someone with my tastes. I drove the TT since starting this thread and found it floaty and a bit vague by comparison, definitely in need of an upgraded suspension for serious track work. Plus I don't fit too well in the seat, I felt like I sat on top of it rather than in it, and I had insufficient headroom; this is probably going to be a problem for me in any 996 sunroof coupe. Also the TT goes straight to an SCCA modified class.

So I think the PASM 997 is a fine car. Great stock suspension and more headroom/kneeroom, easier to adjust the steering wheel to get comfortable. I drove PASM Cayman S and Boxster S a while ago, but found them bland and uninspiring, not as fun to drive as my 2003 Evo VIII ... thus not cars I wanted to spend more money on. Somehow the 911 makes me smile. So at this time, a 997 or 997S with PASM appears to be the answer. PCCB would be cool, but not being the 70 a-x/yr. fanatic, it's not a must-have for me.

racer

My only 996TT experience was at the track. Students car. Set up with the X73 suspension. Found it to be a very nice set up. Not too stiff on the street but very good response at the track.

The CS and BS are not necessarily as entertaining to drive, but they can be downright fast regardless. No need to worry about 70 percent of the weight swinging around behind you like a 911, just turn and go.

If the 911 makes you smile, well, then make sure you keep smiling! Most PCA regions put the GT2/GT3/ 996 TT/997s all together, likely because there are so few that show up so far, plus their performance is similar (an potentially FTD capable)

2002M3Drew

I've driven said GT3 with GT all last season and most of season before that, with and without PCCBs. They absolutely make a difference, and the weight IS ~41 lbs unsprung. 41 lbs unsprung weight in autox is HUGE, even on a beast like the GT3. It changes the whole character of the car. Consider that people spend huge amounts of money to shave just a pound or two per wheel (for 8 lbs unsprung weight reduction) and feel like they have made a huge difference. By the way, we also run lighter wheels than stock, and the Hoosiers are lighter as well than regular streets...all unsprung weight reduction.

The 924S was a good deal from a friend, and basically a disposable Porsche to beat on locally. No need to use up a $110,000 at Giants Stadium just to prove to local guys that the car is (still) fast. The GT3 is still the car we are driving for the big events.

Dr. Car

Thanks and no disrespect meant to the Boxster or Cayman. They are obviously amazingly cars, they just don't suit me as well as the 911. I wish I liked the 987 better, since I would have spent less money. I just picked up my new 997S today, I got a fair deal on a nearly base coupe. What a fine car. I can't wait to get past the breakin period. It should be a good car to go mix it up with PCA and SCCA; not the best car for its classes, but good enough for me.

earlyapex

Have fun with your car. The 997S is a great model and should give you years of enjoyment.

NJ-GT

Dr Car,

Great choice on the 997S. A good friend (cgomez on this board) has a 997S. He is pretty fast on a bone stock car with Toyo RA1 tires (not the fastest race tire). His fastest time at Watkins Glen is on the 2:12 range. He's a great autocrosser, with a few National level SCCA trophies. Feel free to send him a private message.

PCCB are a must if you're looking for the ultimate setup legal in stock. Same goes to no A/C. I weighed every rotor to determine the exact difference between iron and PCCB.

These are the weights (per rotor):
Front Iron(350mm): 26 lbs
Rear Iron (330mm): 19.5 lbs
Front PCCB (350mm): 12.5 lbs
Rear PCCB (350mm): 12 lbs
Rear Iron (350mm): 22 lbs

Once my car was changed to PCCB, I needed to start running the bigger and heavier iron rotors for the back, because of the different rear calipers on the PCCB cars. In my specific application I save 47 lbs on PCCB.

I agree with racer. PCCB are not worthy (they're very expensive), unless you're looking for the last few tenths of a second. I got them used and cheap, but still a $2,000 upgrade once I sold my old big reds.

The 997 doesn't suffer at autocross by not having a LSD. The stiff rear suspension and weight on that axle help the car to have both wheels on the ground. It's different with the Boxster and Cayman, where inside wheel spin is common once driven with high grip tires on tight corners.

Congratulations on the 997S. I've driven it, and it's a great car (with a warranty).

Rad