chuck911

Kevin, if what you claim, and I quote, "The human memory for sound is extremely short, known fact" then can you please explain why anyone would pay for PSE? Don't these people know it is a FACT they cannot remember beyond an "extremely short" time what their car sounds like?

And yet, strangely enough, not only do lots of guys state FOR CERTAIN that PSE is worth it, they make very bold claims about what one car sounds like compared to another. Maybe you can explain to the hundreds, thousands, of guys posting on this how they need to prove to you how they are able to perform these incredible feats.

Or, just maybe, people do have memory and do actually recall what things sound like, and for more than a millisecond, even.

In FACT the situation is even more compelling than even the people who agree let on. The idea for example that cables do make a difference but not as much as components. IN FACT cables and interconnects are just as much a component as amps, pre-amps or any other thing in the chain. This has been demonstrated to me more times than I care to recall. But I will give two examples.

The first was a roughly $60k system in which the dealer used approx $100k of wire. Not any old wire of course, not even the most expensive, just the best performing of all the high-end cables, interconnects and power cords he had in stock. Sound? Made him totally rethink the idea of paying more for wire than the other components.

The second was with a budget system I put together for my father-in-law. Speakers, integrated amp, CD player, interconnects and speaker cables, grand total $1200. Just for kicks I swapped out cables, interconnects and power cords from my system. Not all at once, one at a time, comparing each step of the way. At one point just adding the speaker cables doubled the cost of the budget system. And the improvement was easily heard. With power cord and interconnect- each of them costing more than the components they're connected to- even more improvement. It was crazy how good this budget gear sounded with the right wire.

Frankly Kevin it is not my responsibility to prove to you with facts or otherwise what I know to be true. I have had parties at my house where literally dozens of people- most of whom really had no interest in stereo gear, totall non-audiophiles- were able to easily hear the differences between power cords. Frankly every single one of them was rolling their eyes in the beginning, then later stunned at what they were hearing. So go ahead, insult me by calling this a rant or whatever. Its your loss. Assuming you enjoy music at all, that is, because these things all serve but one purpose: getting you closer to the music.

One other thing, about the inability of people to hear. While it is true that everyone has the capacity, it is equally true that not everyone has the desire to develop their capacity. Just as one must put forth a certain amount of mental energy to learn say logic, one must put forth a certain amount of mental energy to fully develop their hearing abilities. So there is that.

But there is also the challenge of the system. While most high-end components are easily capable of performance that will enable one to hear the differences between say two interconnects, this is not true for one and all. A good example is a friend who has spent pretty much his entire life tweaking, building, modifying his whole sound system, trying to get it just the way he wants it. He certainly has done that. But somewhere along the way he went off track. How do I know? Because he has brought over to my place interconnects he has made so that we could compare them. In his system he finds it very hard to hear any difference. In my system the differences are much bigger. His words.

So here we have a guy who clearly can hear, and remember what he's heard, and evaluate what he's hearing- not facts you care to hear but facts all the same- and he is at a loss as to why he's easily able to hear in mine what he's hard-pressed to hear in his.

The answer though is easy and logical enough. In order to be able to hear something the system must first be able to reproduce it. If the something we are trying to hear is say a spatial perception of depth, or of the acoustic signature of the recording venue, then of course the system must be capable of reproducing this. The whole system. It is analagous to looking out a window through a dozen panes of glass. Ideally all are clean and transparent. In reality each pane is shaded a bit, colored a bit, maybe even a little scratched up or dirty. Easy enough to see if a couple panes are badly fogged up its not going to help much to replace one of the cleaner ones with a really clean clear one. Might look a little better. Then again you might not notice. But if all the panes are really clean and clear to begin with then its really easy to notice when one is replaced with a different pane that has a rosy, or gray, whatever tint to it.

And that's just the components. There is also the setup. Lots of people still don't know the immense impact of speaker placement not only in the room but with respect to precise geometric positioning relative to the listening spot. Reading comments here I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about. I only know what I am talking about. Which is why I can state categorically for a fact that all these things do make a difference. It frankly is up to you to decide for yourself- either you want to try and learn, or you do not. The choice is entirely yours to make.

aussie jimmy

audio is a sickness and i love it!
even more crazy than cars.
i agree, cables do make quite a difference. you just have to try them out and choose the ones that appeal to your ear. don't get caught up in science or measurements. let the hypofigurechondriacs worry about that and just listen.

Kevinmacd

chuck911 - more rant, no proof just your take on which you have no backing. As I said, you make claims and have no logic or any data to prove your point. Yet there are many scientific claims to prove the lack of memory of sound since it is short term memory. The only thing the mind will do is register that you liked a particular sound but thats as far as it goes. But to use memory to compare something such as cables when there is a longer span of time between sampling, wih minimum changes in nuances is just not capable.
If you disagree with the supplied quote, you need to take it up with the scientific community
"Sensory memory is an ultra-short-term memory and decays or degrades very quickly, typically in the region of 200 - 500 milliseconds (1/5 - 1/2 second) after the perception of an item, and certainly less than a second (although echoic memory is now thought to last a little longer, up to perhaps three or four seconds). Indeed, it lasts for such a short time that it is often considered part of the process of perception, but it nevertheless represents an essential step for storing information in short-term memory."

So please kill the rant! Because thats all it is. You are right you don't owe me proof, becuse your theories and claims say it all!

Nuff said!

Cyberpunky

and what constructive things did you add ?? this whole subject is about opinion, as you cable lovers can't back up what you hear, in any scientific manner and yet for those of us who know that expensive cables are a big fat scam, you zealots ask for data. I guess it would get boring trying bullying o0thers into believing in your golden ears and having no luck. The fact you even bring your dead father into it, to buy credibility that you don't have, and then try and dismiss me as full of it and short sighted is pretty disgraceful behavior IMO.

I do have good news for you as my life is great indeed. I own a Porsche, have several great sound systems and they give me great joy and although I spent too much on my speaker cable, I bought it because it looked cool not because I could hear a difference bi-wiring my system. I always suggest using good quality cable inter connects etc as it makes things more reliable but if you can hear an improvement by using teflon coated medical grade toslink leads then knock your self out, but it is a fact you are deluded and have no understanding of how digital systems work. Oh that's right you wouldn't use modern technology like digital, as your a vinyl guy lol enough said right there Mr ludite

Arominus

I'm with cyberpunky on this subject, buy a decently made cable and have a great day. The physics of electrical transmission over a copper wire really don't support the claims of the expensive wire salesmen. Buy a nicely made cable, by all means! However you'll see much larger gains from properly maintaining your equipment and spending serious time in your listening room taking care of its imperfections via proper sound deadening and equipment placement than you will from a 4k set of 6ft speaker wires.

caf

This is what I use:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

Like any good speaker cable, it should have no effect on the sound whatsoever. If your speaker cable truly sounds differently, then it is coloring the sound. If you like that, and are willing to overpay for the world's least tunable equilizer system, then go for it. Personally, I think there are better ways to tune a system than with cables.

I'm currently doing a research study. Patients in Group A get one medication; patients in Group B get another medication. I hear all sorts of convincingly reported side effects from Group B. It's a placebo. There is absolutely no substitute for a blinded analysis, however it's very hard to achieve in reality. We are constantly battling to eliminate sources of bias.

Take speaker listening, for instance. Listening to speaker A, manufactured by a maker you hold in good but not exceptional regard, you conclude that the sound is 7/10 on your personal scale. You then listen to speaker B. You lust after speakers made by manufacturer B. Your eyes are open wide, your mouth agape, your chin held high as you anticipate hearing the same passage. Yet, even the head angle alone can make the same speaker sound different, and based on your preconceived notions, you'll probably decide you like it better.

aussie jimmy

nothing wrong with a bit of romance.
cold, hard, scientific analysis is boring.

Jim Devine

This site is a good one- these guys are really into this:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=cables

In the end, if your room hasn't been done by an acoustic specialist, why blow money on cables?

This is a purpose built room- best of the best-
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Iss...avigneroom.htm

LT Texan

The real crazies live here.

DIY Audio

I gave away my Transparent Cable bi-wire (very old) after I made some cables with Cat5.

Recipe

Do these sound better? I think so.

I haven't bought any speaker/interconnect cables in decades.

It's all subjective as far a I'm concerned.

All good fun.

Terry L

I love this thread! Passion, knowledge, experience, fervor... It's got it all. On the merits, I'm not sure although this year I gave in, drank the Koolaid and bought Cardas cables to along with my new system, which replaced my 40 year old good-for-its-day setup. All I can say is that my new system is astounding by comparison - every time I play a CD, I can hear so much more detail, range and clarity. It may be the amp, the speakers, the CD player, or the cables, but the net result is dramatic.
So what is clear to me is that musical memory is by no means a short term phenomenon. Maybe trying to A-B components and recall the differences is difficult, but hearing music I have heard on a different system and perceiving the differences is easy and obvious, at least when major changes in equipment and setup have occurred. If that is true, then I think the short term memory stuff is relating to a different matter. Maybe I can't recall a sound I have just heard but I can compare what I've just heard to something I heard before.

George from MD

I love this debate. And while I have some Nordost cables myself (they look cool and I got 'em cheap) I haven't detected a whit's worth of difference between those and less expensive cable from the cable company or (horrors!) some old monster cable I have. "Elevating" cables. Sheesh. I marvel over the creative bullsh*t some of the Micheal Fremers and others of his ilk can come up with when describing the differences. It was more "open", more "transcendant" there was "better rhythm and spacing". They pay people for that?

FWIW I trust this guy a lot more than I do people who claim to hear a difference or a hi fi salesman who never took a basic electronics course:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Jim Devine

I guess it comes down to- if you are older or have been around a lot of noise for extended periods
(work / racing etc.) then chances are your hearing is diminished and none of this matters anyway.
Before spending a lot on hardware, a good hearing test might show that you couldn't tell the difference ...

LT Texan

Well here is why people say they can hear speaker wire.

Essex Echo

Go ahead. Read it.

George from MD

Perhaps you can explain all the math to us- I'm not very good at differential equations much less vector calculus. You can explain it in layman's terms, right?

You might want to explain why the article was published in the consumer press and was never presented for peer review in scientific publications or at any college or university too. Maybe you could also tell us why no peer reviewed article has ever been presented to support it.

It has been cited for years by the geeks at Stereophile (and others who sell cables and the publications that advertise them) as mathematical evidence that cables do sound different and are worth $565,000 per linear foot. Even though they never took a course in calculus. I can understand why the Micheal Fremers of the world, who swear that vinyl is better and have hearing a dog would envy but who have yet to take a blind listening test to prove it, just love this article. Now they can say, without a shred of proof, that they can hear the difference between, say, a Nordost Leif and the Nordost Supreme Reference. Just because you and I, or the average dog, can't hear it doesn't mean that they can't. They've trained their ears and can tell you for a fact that the Supreme Reference is ten times better sounding than the Leif and just blows away that Cat 5 you picked up at the electrical store.

Of course, those folks who hype it have absolutely no interest in selling magazines, hyper expensive audio or taking freebies from the manufacturers, right?

In short, it's a nice piece of psuedo scientific jumbo that proves nothing. There are a number of articles debunking it- please note that what the good doctor states as a mathematical fact and what is his opinion are two entirely different things.

At any rate one of them is here: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_24_r.pdf

cobalt

I found this to be an interesting read although he seems to contradict himself at times and he states in some cases no variation was observed on his oscilloscope but looking closely there is a variation??? I also consider a 6% he states only 5% increase in silver over copper is huge yet he seems to brush it off. I have many forms of vintage copper wire and silver plated wire and I can measure differences on my oscilloscope? Another thing that comes into play is insulating the wires and this has an impact yet is not really addressed.

Since this thread began I decided to set up two of my systems for easy change between preamp and amp of my interconnects and tested 5 sets of IC's playing the same passage of Patricia Barber from Cafe Blue each time on each system. Three of the wires were the different levels of Audience AU24's I purchased the base set for $200 used the AU24E's for $400 used and I had a base set of AU24's I purchased used for $200 and had upgraded to the AU24SE's for $220 from Audience all in $420. I also compared this to an older set of transparent from the 80's and some basic came with a crappy CD player IC's.

The first system is my old McIntosh C26 with 2505 amp driving 8 ohm KEF's the second consists of my Shindo Masseto and two Accuphase Class A A30 amps bridged in mono driving 4 ohm Totem winds. The Mac system is in my office and I used just basic power chord for my speaker wire and the second system uses the AU24SE speaker cables.

Now I might be making a mistake by using the meters on my amps as a guide to get the levels as close as possible. I admit the meters on the Mac amps are a bit subjective but there is not many meters I would trust as much as the ones Accuphase uses especially in sustain mode. Since it was simple plug and play I had my son make the changes and the meters are easy enough to read so I did not have to move from my seat. BTW my son plays several musical instruments including guitar and sax and he and I agreed with the results of almost every test.

I spent considerable time checking everything and I feel I had a close enough setting to see if there is any difference. I will honestly say that on the Mac equipment I would not waste my money on the audience cables which I haven't done. Although I feel I can hear some minor differences between the Audience cables I will rule out any audible difference for the sake of argument. However when using the old transparent IC and the cheap box store giveaways there was clearly a loss of clarity and definition throughout the range and fall off of higher and lower frequencies. I noticed the volume need to be adjusted considerably higher for the transparent and cheapo wires but at similar volumes they clearly were lacking in clarity and definition. Normally, I use some very old silver IC's I have had since the 80's and these are fine but any decent pair would work fine for the limits of this system.

On my main system I did the same test. I started with the cheapo and went to the transparents. I know my system well and I can assure you they both sounded awful. Missing the depth, separation of instruments and loss of the entire sound stage basically sounded lifeless. Moving onto the Audience cables I admit all three IC's had the same tonal quality and did not differ in sound. What was quite noticeable was the clarity and separation of the instruments. I picked one area to focus, in this case I listened for the swiping of the wire brush across the snare drum which was nearly inaudible in the first two IC's and one of many defining improvements in sound over the first two. The wire brush was also barely evident through the Mac system. The base AU24's the brush was obvious but not well defined. The AU24E's this same brush was a bit more pronounced but by the time I made it to the AU24SE's I can clearly hear the lift and swipe of the brush across the head of the drum as though each bristle made its own sound vs a swiping swishing sound. This was not a figment of my imagination and I allowed my son to make his observation first which confirmed mine. I went back and forth many times and no matter what I did you can clearly hear the difference in detail and yes it was more than just the one instrument that gained from these cables I just used this to focus on. I would assume the stability of the amp as he states makes a difference in this system.

As I had said I never was sold on this stuff I stumbled upon it and was a naysayer from the beginning but now converted. These articles don't convince me over what my ears tell me. My ears are nothing special however I am sure if my son and I Can hear the same differences so can others. I am not saying that any one cable is better or worse however cables can be used to fine tune your system. This is all relative and from what I observed what works on one system had a limited impact on another so each system is a variable and therefore you have to decide what you are trying to achieve. For me in my main system I have never heard two cables that sounded alike so it is hard for me to believe that cables can not make a difference.