George from MD

Cobalt I'm much like you I think. I love my audio equipment and music (especially my beloved Mac) but I've done comparisons with cables and never heard a difference. And my wife (who has better ears than I do) couldn't hear the difference either. Until I do I'm spending my money on other stuff. I have a ClearAudio TT with a Sumiko Blackpoint and I would really like to get a good MM cartridge and pre-amp. IMO things like that are just a much better investment than cables. And I just get tired of hearing all the hype- some of it is laughable IMO.

If you can hear a difference (or think you can) that's great. When I do I'll be a convert too. Until then you'll just have to count me as cynical to the extreme.

Dr. G

How many other people picked up the reference to Bruce Rozenblit? I assume that's who you were referring to.

The last time I changed speaker cables it made a huge difference in sound - although I also changed to a Theta Casablanca and Aerial 7ts, so that could have made the difference, too.

LT Texan

well, there's no reasoning with you!



Is there anyone in the world who hasn't taken a calculus course?

This is a hobby, nothing to get all worked about it.

Have fun with this Cable Cookbook. If you don't, do something else.

Cyberpunky

My name is in my sig so I assumed he was refering to me, as I was saying wire has 3 properties. I did not say wire was wire and at no point did I mention anything about measuring but I guess sticking to what is actually said and paraphrasing incorrectly helps them get their point across.

I guess even though I was head national sound quality judge, involved with training SQ judges, a national champion in the highest class of competition, have over 35 years experience in audio working in high end audio sales, pro-audio in an audio engineering company, car audio, and am a self confessed audio enthusiast, I just don't have the experience, knowledge, or expertise in critical listening to be able to hear the difference cables make.

In car audio a guy came along many years ago and debunked a lot of myths, even though many of those myths are still spread by ppl ignorant of the facts. His name is Richard Clark and he is a physicist, so used science to prove the myths wrong. He also built a car that took car audio to another level. A Buick Grand National. Anyway he has an amp challenge for those golden eared to take his money. No one has. He also challenged the golden eared on cables and none of them could tell the difference between expensive uber cable, a cheap lead, or the signal fed into household down pipes from a roof gutter.

I have tried to hear a difference in cables on uber expensive reference systems and never been able too, and when I challenged other co-workers to pick their cable(these guys sold them and swore by them) to a blind test, that had to admit they had no idea when they were listening to the expensive cable or normal cable. They just couldn't back it up and yet they had sold these $x,000 cables believing it made a huge difference.

In a non blind test, just the look on the face of the tester can influence the results, and as the good doctor pointed out, placebo's always have side effects according to some ppl being tested, so unless any testing is done in double blind format, then any result isn't valid, despite what ppl may believe who audition cables. When they try a dbl blind test, they get no better results than a random guess. If I am spending my money I want to actually be sure what I am spending it on actually has an audible benefit.

In my SQ system I ran a full fibre optic signal path and could switch between a cheaper DAC and an Apogee DAC, and on a reference track designed for evaluation, you could clearly hear the triangle decay to the 17 second mark, where the cheaper DAC the decay was only audible to the 12 second mark. Most systems I listened to this track on you were lucky to get to the 10 second mark. The signals coming out of the DACs were level matched using a CRO and then fed into an Audio Control MVC(master volume control), which was used to provide uniform gain structure in competition, and from there to 2 Phoenix Gold Zeropoint amps. These amps used triple darlington arrays, WIMA caps, thin metal film transistors, and are considered by many some of the best amps ever produced for car audio.

My speakers were Dynaudio system 360 with Image dynamics, IDmax subs. The car had acoustic treatment on the roof lining, was heavily sound deadened. Listening was done, engine off and staionary. I am guessing this is where the cable guys jump in and slam car audio as a joke, and that therefore I have no credibility, but if they head to the car audio nationals and listen to the best cars out there, they wouldn't believe what we can do in a car system and would be amazed at what can be done. The difference with car audio is that no one uses voo doo to get the results, as it is only a solid understanding of all aspects of audio reproduction that allows anyone to get decent results in such a challenging environment.

I am happy to talk about group delay in high order boxes, or what frequencies are volume dependent or time or both, or many other things most home audiophiles, who claim golden ears, have no idea about, but I guess if the sum total of your audio knowledge is gained from just throwing more money at it, then of course cables are a viable source of improvement, as are power conditioners, green felt dots on the walls, isolation pads etc as what else can you do if you don't really know anything but how to spend money to improve your sound reproduction, rather than learning how it all works.
peace
Cyberpunky

Dr. G

Bruce, you and the other Bruce agree

I've been through a bunch of systems. I think Mike Kelly over at Aerial makes a fine product and it sounds great to my ears. I went the route of using active crossovers with digital time alignment of all drivers for a while. It was all fine and good until I spoke to a friend of mine who has been in audio for a long time and he basically said "So what you're saying is you don't trust the designer to time align the drivers and make sure that group phase is correct in their designs." It sort of put things in perspective.

cobalt

I understand, spend the money on what is most important first. Figuring out your rooms shortcomings and building a system is most important. Suggesting to buy cables first and then the system is like me telling someone to improve handling of their 911 they should change their tires when their shocks are blown.

I always said the source is priority one and work outwards from there. If your source is weak it doesn't matter what the rest of your system is comprised of.

When it all boils down what's it all about? The music. I don't think anyone would argue that. I enjoy listening I have a stereo in every room but there are times I enjoy being immersed in music. That is when I turn to my main system and I have gone to extremes and pushed my budget but it was worth it right down to the cables.

I have always been lucky enough to have good friends who own a 40+ year premier high end store. I have been fortunate enough to audition almost every high end piece of equipment and speakers over the years. I can spend all day at the store listening or they are happy to lend me a product to try out. I have learned there is as much good and bad with every aspect of equipment and accessories. Price is not directly proportional to gain and sometimes very expensive equipment can look great and sound like crap. So as with anything in this field it is the buyer who has to know what he is looking to achieve.

Cables and other accessories are something i would not have considered if I didn't already have the system I am happy with and the next improvement gain in equipment or speakers will cost me far more than the most expensive cables. I could take it to much further extremes but after spending a lot of time at audio shows and listening to systems costing hundreds of thousands I have to draw the line and walk away admiring how well my (inexpensive in comparison) system stood up to the current state of the art. I hit the point of diminishing returns so for me cables were the next and last step to perfecting an already fantastic sounding system.

As far as cartridges go. I am huge fan of low output MC and tube phono section. Although this can get very pricey it is worth considering. Benz Micro, clear audio and other well respected cartridges offer buy back programs where you can upgrade your cartridge and save considerable money. I am an advocate for buying used equipment but not cartridges and finding the right one took me a long time but what a difference it made. IMO my system is far more than the sum of its components but the cartridge is the heart of the sound.

Dr. G

Anthony, which store? I used to work at a shop in Manhasset, NY.