Kevinmacd

Chuck 911 - The human memory for sound is extremely short, known fact. With your example too many variables, the actual terminations could have been faulty etc.. Care to give me a good quantative reason as to how carpet hampers sound with cables on it! If a cable has good insulation and carpet is not a conductor,think you are just spreading a myth.
BTW I guarantee you can't hear the full 20 to 20K spectrum at the same level!

cybe

An eardrum behaves in analog, no? Like a microphone - and microphones sound different, right? Then ears are shaped differently -- like baffles, acoustic dampers.

And so I posit; The ear is the bottleneck in your reference Sound Quality goal, and so SQ is objective. (Expensive audio component unappreciated? Ah, you just listen differently than I do.)

Following this line of reasoning.. wouldn't it be prudent to instead upgrade the weakest link in your system - at any cost, as best bang-for-your-buck?



With love,
Harmon-Kardon, Swan Diva, and a sonically improper listening position.

Randy V

Classic audiophilium anarchist statement - it's true because it is!

chuck911

Well the difference between the Phil Spector "wall of sound" and the deep liquid 3-D soundfield of say a Doug Sax is profound, beyond a doubt, and yet an awful lot of people would have a hard time explaining it. Robert Harley in his "Complete Guide to High-End Audio" uses the example of an X-ray. Beginning med students look at one and see a few outlines with lots of shades of gray. Over time they learn to see details. Eventually they're learning to see not only details, but in almost 3D, a neat trick since x-rays are 2D, but being in that line of work I can say it definitely does happen.

Another thing that happens, sometimes people totally lacking in diagnostic ability nevertheless have an affinity or desire that leads them into management or administrative positions, often times far above anything one would guess based on pedestrian criteria like can you do the job? Heck some of them may even rise to the level of say sound quality judge, sometimes even in the face of evidence most of us would consider fatal, such as publicly admitting they can't hear any difference between two components.

chuck911

See, this is the kind of absolute nonsense that makes me want to just ignore anyone dense enough to write such drivel. But instead I'd demolish it with a completely unexpected yet utterly understandable line of argument.

Mom hears baby cry. Mom can recognize baby's cry minutes, hours, YEARS later. Mom NEVER has any trouble differentiating between cries of babies, toddlers, teenagers. Over her entire life span.

Such crap.

Another one? Like this is so hard.

Doctor learns how to recognize breath sound of fluid in lungs. Doctor goes on to be able to distinguish not only fluid in lungs, but minute variations indicative of bronchitis, pneumonia, etc. Doctor correctly diagnoses pathology based on sound not heard in years. Happens all the time.

The last two here are my favorite. They demolish not only the patently absurd "humans have no memory of hearing" but also the "must double-blind test everything" canards.

Friend at work who always rolls eyes at my seemingly super-human auditory skills decides to play a trick on me. Friends are over for party, each one gets to hear their favorite music sitting in the sweet spot. Idiot - sorry, doubter- has heard me go on about how speakers/chair are positioned within 1/8" inch, necessary to superb 3D soundfield. When nobody's in the room, moves chair half an inch. Another friend asks to hear music recorded at lower level so I decide to check sound level before they sit down. Immediately notice imbalance. Immediately check balance. Fine. Must be speakers or chair. Check chair. BS idiot who cannot hear made two unwarranted and false assumptions: 1. that I can't hear, 2. that I can't remember what its supposed to sound like.

Got it?

Second true story. This one will blow EVERYONE away!

After reading many seemingly exaggerated stories about power line conditioners, RF noise in lines, better sound late at night, etc etc I tried a few things and discovered sure enough if you turn off all the circuit breakers except the one to your stereo it sounds a lot better. Same guy at work finds space alien abduction more likely. Had him bring his wife over for dinner, along with her favorite CD (anyone sensing a pattern here? Has to be music you LOVE, not technical evaluative crap!) which we played after dinner. Asked her to pick one track she won't mind hearing twice. After playing I said NOTHING, went out and flipped off the breakers. Came back played track again. Asked what do you think?

She said, "what did you do that made it sound so much better?" Didn't tell her anything. Asked how does it sound better? "EVERYTHING sounds better- clearer, more detail, more natural, like he's right there in the room!" Clear monster emotional impact on her.

Her husband the idiot was stunned as well. He told her nothing, he doubted and wanted so very, very badly to be able to tell me I'm full of BS but all he could do was sit there and shake his head and marvel.

Incidentally, the story of how I came across this is fascinating in and of itself - because I was utterly skeptical of this claim in the beginning- but this post is long enough already, and the doubters won't care or be affected one way or another. That's just the way they are. Unwilling to learn.

Now just for the record nobody is really an idiot. Well, okay, some really are! But mostly there are people who for whatever reason simply decide to believe something, dig their heels in, and pontificate as if what they have decided to take on faith is the same as reality.

Well, guess what? Its not.

chuck911

Sorry, but it just goes on and on....


"If a cable has good insulation and carpet is not a conductor,think you are just spreading a myth"

So close, and yet so far away! :If a cable has good insulation..." But there is no perfect insulation. Everything so far winds up storing electrical energy from the wire and releasing it back into the wire. Insulation is really, really important. So you take your cable and lay it on your nylon carpet. What happens? Carpet acts just like an insulator, absorbing and releasing energy back into the wire. At least that is one of the theories. If you read my post that's what I said originally, people have different ideas why. Why is cool to know. I guess. Better is just to listen and choose which sounds better. Then let people who never bother to listen and compare argue about why. Me, I'll just be sitting here loving my music.

"BTW I guarantee you can't hear the full 20 to 20K spectrum at the same level!"

And your point is?

That Mom can't recognize the sound of her own baby because her hearing isn't flat to twenty kilo-hertz?

That Itzak Perlman should have retired in his twenties, the day his hearing dropped below 20 kHz? The violin is chock full of upper harmonics, don't you know?

That ears aren't attached to heads? Because last I looked the human head has a shape that alters frequencies reaching the ear in phase and amplitude. Ears too, for that matter. Pretty sure every single human being has a slightly different shape head and ears.

My point being, human beings are not microphones, computers, robots.

Stop thinking and writing and sit down and actually listen. It really is that simple.

Cyberpunky

Ironically this is exactly how salesmen sell expensive cabling. *you wouldn't put retreads on your ferrari would you?*. This is a false analogy as the contact patch that keeps you precious expensive car on the road is about the most important thing you can have to keep your car on said road, and in fact many believe probably the most important choice you can make for a performance vehicle.

A more realistic analogy would be to suggest changing your battery grounds could improve performance, and it could if they were old and poor condition, but only slightly, and gold plating them, mounting them away from the cars body etc wont do squat

For many years in car audio and to a lesser extent home audio, ppl believed filling a subwoofer box with dacron would fool the speaker into thinking it was in a larger enclosure. I did this but could never hear a difference no matter how hard I tried. Many years later a physicist named Richard Clark proved using science, that at best, the stuffing could only change the Vas of the enclosure by a few Hz which although it could be measured, could not be heard, yet to this day many ppl still stuff their boxes with dacron. Myths are hard to kill.

At a comp I informed a competitor that he had an issue at about 200Hz. He came up to me at next comp and said* well you were wrong the problem was at 180 Hz and how the heck did you do that ?*. It was experience, as I have spent countless hours listening to and evaluating sound reproduction systems.

I have never said wire is wire or use lamp cord or use a home depot(what ever that is ) lead. What I am saying is that if you think a $4000 lead will sound any different to any other good quality lead, then you are a sucker, as you can't. I have tried, I have had true believer cable guys try, and when we did a simple experiment at work, by swapping leads with them out of the room, so they had no idea what lead they heard, and they had to admit they had no idea which lead was which and that they couldn't actually tell any difference between basic quality leads and $5000 leads. Surely you should be able to hear the sonic improvement clearly when the difference is in the $x000's. I sure can with amps, speakers, etc.

We actually sold teflon caoted medical grade fibre optic leads for 4 times the price of a normal toslink lead. Sure margin was great on the teflon lead but it was impossible for that lead to make any difference. I could not in good conscious sell those leads others did and they used the retread on a ferrari line every time.

Nothing I can say will convert a cable true believer to loose their faith and when they have tried to convert me and failed it is because I can;t listen properly. I can assure you that if I did spend $x000's on a lead I would listen very intently indeed to justify my purchase, and so have no doubt that ppl will always believe such non sense as power conditioners, green felt dots, turning off cuircuts etc to improve sound. Maybe it was the annoying hum of the fridge that was gone and made things sound so much better, who knows but I don't doubt that ppl will believe what they want.

Hey if you want to sit on the couch eating weight watchers meals, slugging down diet coke, I am not about to tell you to get off your butt and move a bit, as it is your money and if diet coke works for you then go for it.

So anyway I still got the bridge... anyone ????
peace
Cyberpunky

cobalt

Well you have convinced yourself but you just continue to convince me you are full of it.

Ironically I was initially a believer that cables were cables but after many blind tests I have found that not to be the case. If you think you are the only one who has spent countless hours listening and trying different products so be it. Your argument is too general and we are supposed to take your word. Yet my experience has shown me first hand that you are incorrect. I personally have repeatedly determined blindly the differences between cables costing many thousands and some are not necessarily an improvement.

You have no data just your opinion and switched an analogy about rubber compounds to retreads??? We never discussed contact patch which we all know is critical for not only handling, braking and cornering. But the contact patch in this case is just the cable the differences I was referring to was rubber compounds. If you know anything about tires (but obviously you are an expert on this subject too) you would know what I am talking about. Or do the seconds shaved off my lap times and the grip I gain by using a stickier compound while maintaining the same contact patch a figment of my imagination?

As I stated there is a lot of snake oil out there however there are differences between cables and it can be measured. These differences can be significant based on the level of the component and there is always the point of diminishing returns.

Other than your self acclaimed credentials what do you have to substantiate your opinion? I spent countless hours reviewing this with my father-in-law before his passing. He spent years working at Murray Hill/Bell labs and amongst one of many of his patents was the touch tone telephone but his specialty was cabling. He oversaw the manufacture and design of the cables and repeaters used for the transatlantic phone lines along with the first fiber optic cables. There are far more factors that come into play and he had determined that specific ratios of elements used in specific alloys of copper, teflon etc made a difference in the signal pass through. Just as changing ratios in alloys for castings can impact strength, corrosion and other properties the right alloy and cable design allowed for more signal to be transmitted a greater distance and therefore required less repeaters. Not only did the signal travel farther due to far less degradation due to the resistance build up of the alloy but allowed far more information to be transferred initially. I am supposing you will tell me he was nuts next and his years of contribution and patents were another version of snake oil.

Now I agree not everyone hears the same. I have a number of friends that I have listening sessions with and we AB different equipment, cables etc. One of my friends is convinced I have superior hearing although I agree it is not my hearing but how I have learned to properly listen over the 35+ years I have enjoyed this hobby. Although I initially thought it was all BS I have learned that there are cables costing way too much that have superior qualities and can deliver subtle differences lesser cables cannot. However there is a point of diminishing returns and that is something the enthusiast has to determine is of value to them.

My advice is don't quit your day job. I would stick with selling retreads or come up with some objective evidence other than your opinion. We are not telling anyone to go out and spend ridiculous money on cables. I agree cables are a small contributing factor to the end product and buying a better component, input or speaker is far more productive than worrying about cables but once you have the system you like cables can make difference in how the sound is presented. If you believe otherwise so be it but I have more than enough experience to tell me it is not in my head but the differences however subtle do exist.

triode

Well said.

Cyberpunky

so now it gets personal. Nice and a true reflection of your character

Um no, there is plenty of scientific proof ppl can't hear cables click here to earn your first golden ears million
if your hearing is that good, then try Richard Clark,s amp challenge, and you will end up a rich man
You have an unscientific anecdotal tale about how you did a blind test. Impressive where can I find your peer reviewed article on this ?




Clearly you lack basic reading skills as I swapped the analogy to car grounds, and mentioned salesmen use the line about retreads but feel free to ramble on about tyres.

the point isn't about what can be measured it is about what can be heard

That is a low blow as if I say anything I am disrespecting your father who has passed ? You are not your father and so his good work is not yours to claim credibility with. Can you show how any of the above is relevant to a digital signal traveling a metre over a fibre optic cable. Will it introduce jitter ? will that jitter be significant and audible ? My Dad is a great panel beater but I can't fix a dent. You don't inherent your fathers skills, and clearly your father tested scientifically to make advances and not paid a snake oils salesman a lot of money because he told him these cables are better didn't he ?

I am in no way disrespecting your father or his work as he clearly was a man of science. Cable discussions like motor oil discussions, religious discussions often throw science out the window, sadly.

This I agree with, as it is a case of very diminishing returns and it is your money although I think any alleged subtle improvements in hyper expensive cable are perceived and not actual and cannot be backed up with any quantifiable or empirical data and so anecdotal opinions at best.

Thanks for the career advice but I'm doing just fine and at least I have saved a truckload by not buying expensive cable that does nothing IMO and can afford my little car and my humble sound systems, that bring me infinite pleasure. Again with retreads (see above) ?

Um I cannot hear these expensive cables improve anything and so how can I prove that ? OK I have done a a lie detector test so you can believe what I am saying. Results here

so clearly it is use who should be providing empirical data to back your claims of improvement


um that is a matter of opinion because to me, telling a guy who has $4000 cables to go out and buy new ones, because they are 20 years old, sounds like you are saying go out and buy expensive cables. My point has always been use what you have as $4000 cables should be good enough IMO even if old. Did you even read the thread before you got on your cables are special soap box ?

cobalt

Nothing personal just fact.

Vinyl for me or nothing at all.





5





4





3





2




1

aussie jimmy

truth!

it's all degrees, but if you're into something, you pursue it to the nth degree, regardless of time, cost, effort.

Kevinmacd

Chuck911 - you rant very well but lack the knowledge of what seperates fact from your fiction. In your verbose rant you could not provide me with any quantative data on your cables on carpet nonsense, next you refuse to belive the actual findings of many test perfomed over the years about sound memory.
Since you lack any logic or concrete evidence, you would know that certain distortions happen within certain areas of the audio spectrum, but you still know its a sax vs cello. Hence my response you cannot hear 20 to 20K at the same levels. Instruments recognizable, yes but really what it sounded like at recording. So since you are on the attack I suggest you really do your homework and back it up with quantitave information to prove your point rather than rant about a doctor a mom and a baby. BTW if you put 20 babies in a sperate room , and one cries I guarantee a mom would not know if it was really hers or not.
So get off you high horse and use some common logic and information that is available

Let me help you with the violin comment, violins sound reproduction range up to past 2Khz but not oin the upper sound range, human ears are most sensitive to sounds between 1 and 4 kHz. So whats yoour point with your with Itzak Perlma, just goes to show you you rant and have no background informati

Once again care to provide me with proof that cables on a carpet can hamper the reproduction of sound.

Cyberpunky

The only facts we have on wires are they have resistance, capacitance and inductance, everything else is opinion, and most of that misguided. No wonder the cable/ power isolater/green felt pen/magic dots crowd make so much money.

cobalt

No I was stating that it was fact that you are full of it and obviously can't see beyond your own shortsightedness. This has become boring and you have contributed nothing constructive to this thread. Your name says it all. Have a nice life.