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Nose lift, CPO, PCNA

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Old 08-14-2016, 10:59 PM   #1
JB911
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Default Nose lift, CPO, PCNA

Hello,

I've been planning on starting this thread for the last few weeks, pending results on my correspondence with PCNA. Hopefully others can chime in with their experiences.
As a lot of owners have posted on this subject, both the 997 and 991 cars have had various problems with the nose lift on their cars. Over the years I've seen posts where cars had the entire system replaced under warranty, and this includes the newer 991, which from what I gather, has a different compressor-you would think it was improved if it was the case. Replacement parts add up to between $9-12K(!)

Around April last year, I went to the closest dealer with a Lift Malfunction message in the instrument cluster. Days without the car, then I was told a 'sensor" was replaced. I would think it was one of the pressure switches, and the lift continued to work. I used it sparingly, when absolutely needed since then. I asked if the whole system shouldn't be replaced since so many seem to have been, expecting perhaps a new compressor/pump might be improved, etc.
That dealer seemed indifferent to my request, and since the lift worked again I decided it was perhaps fixed.

About 2 months ago, I started experiencing intermittent issues. The "Lift" message that's supposed to light up when it's actuated, was either very late in appearing or not lighting up, even though the nose was up.
I decided to try a new dealer that just opened up, about a 30 mile drive from where I live, but being a brand new dealer I decided it might be good to try it out and hopefully get a little more attention and a service advisor that would have some concern about the issue.
Like excellent dealer in North Houston where I bought the car, who let me in the service area, under the car, answering questions and concerns, etc.

At this new dealership, a polite service advisor was not able to diagnose the issue. While there, I had the bleeding/flushing of my brakes and clutch, and on the receipt it said the nose lift issue could not be verified. After I paid for the flush I said there is still an issue, and CPO should cover it. This took a whole afternoon into the end of the day, and I left with no solution. Then after 3-4 days I got the Lift Malfunction message, which would of course not go away.
I made another appointment, brought the car back in and was told the compressor is burned or whatever. There was no printed PIWIS report or receipt showing codes or malfunctions. I checked my CPO status and it had just expired that week

So a call to PCNA 800 number got me a case number, and a pledge for "good will" repair since the car was there under CPO, and they could not get a"reading" on the cause" in the first place. I was certainly happy, the service manager said it was approved and I assumed parts were ordered from Germany, etc.

After a long wait, 2 weeks later, I was then told PCNA does NOT want to cover 100% parts and labor-very disappointing of course.
Service advisor said they told him that the car is 2011, end of CPO-but the extended factory warranty is supposed to go to 100k miles, and the date I was there for repair-and I only have 15K miles-

Complicating the issue is the fact that I had a left suspension "injury" last year- spun out in the rain after a 4x4 cut me off on the highway-rear left cross member broke, insurance paid for repairs at a Porsche Certified Collision center, all parts genuine, they even replaced the entire left suspension components, which afaik maintains my CPO 100%-
Nose lift continued working after this incident, which was a year ago, so I consider it bizarre that they would deny 100% warranty and bring that up(?)

I emailed the service advisor asking if there was a PIWIS report confirming the compressor is indeed cooked, and have had no response since last week-I've also placed a number of phone calls with no answer.
I called the 800 number again and followed up on the case number I was given, spoke to another person at the calling center in Michigan(I thought it would be in Atlanta, where PCNA is).

They are certainly polite over the phone, but I really don't know who am I speaking to-it's on a first name basis, and I'm not sure what position the people I spoke to are in to decide about my complaint-
I think the issue should have been addressed and repaired correctly either the first time in April of last year, or this time when it was in for service under CPO.
I will probably write PCNA instead of calling the 800 number again-does anyone on the list know who I should be trying to reach? If I had left the car there when I had the brake flush and demanded a complete nose lift assembly it would have been over a month sitting around, and maybe denied anyway.

My BMW and Audi warranty experiences have been flawless. BMW replaces just about anything that's wrong-my Audi S3 just had the entire steering airbag/horn replaced because of a defect in the aluminum ring on the horn-it was done, no questions asked, replaced under warranty-

So if anyone has a contact that I should be speaking to I'd appreciate any advice. Perhaps the person I spoke to is the ultimate authority in denying the repair, I don't know. Not sure what to think of the dealer, now I think I should have left the car there and insisted on the repair-

Other owners might end up with a Lift Malfunction message that will not go away-Durametric won't erase it.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm sure other members will eventually run into the issue-as it is, I'm no longer considering purchasing a Macan in the near future-

JB
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Old 08-15-2016, 10:28 AM   #2
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I have never dealt with PCNA, but from what you wrote they are identical to BMW in terms of the way they conduct business. You are not reaching high enough and getting stuck with the corporate structure.

I have dealt with a buybacks of expensive cars before or large warranty claims when I had aftermarket parts on my car and dealt with magnusson moss act. Bottom line is I dealt with a corporation of a luxury european brand and the only way you will make positive progress is if the general manager or service manager (assuming either of them actually know the right people otherwise its no different for them to call PCNA) backs you and fights for you.

I bought BMWs worth several hundred thousand dollars and I get treated the same if I call the 1-800 number. Its just how it is, doesnt matter if you had 3xGT3s in your garage. Dealership is all that makes the difference.
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Old 08-15-2016, 04:09 PM   #3
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One thing is for sure-they are making no efforts to reach me, and nothing in writing. I will wait a few more days and see where it goes. I will inquire about contacting someone higher up, probably in writing-I'm sure they might be offended, I've been politely requesting what I think should have been done-complete repair of the whole unit, which I suspect is faulty design to begin with.
The TechArt lift seems like the right approach, hydraulic instead of pneumatic-

997 system:
http://nemiga.com/cat_spares/pet/por...3-2/29/402030/

991 system:
http://nemiga.com/cat_spares/pet/por...3/541u/402030/

I tried to ask the service adviser by email if indeed the pump can be confirmed to be burned, or if the pressure switches could be at fault. That was a week ago, no answer-no PIWIS report, just a verbal statement-I think I'll ask the person assigned to my case number to request a written report/estimate on what was diagnosed. Seems absurd that even that is worse than going to the dentist to get your wisdom teeth pulled

Both service adviser and manager were very nice, but once I was informed that the repair would not be 100%, emails and calls were not answered.
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Old 08-15-2016, 04:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by JB911 View Post
One thing is for sure-they are making no efforts to reach me, and nothing in writing. I will wait a few more days and see where it goes. I will inquire about contacting someone higher up, probably in writing-I'm sure they might be offended, I've been politely requesting what I think should have been done-complete repair of the whole unit, which I suspect is faulty design to begin with.
The TechArt lift seems like the right approach, hydraulic instead of pneumatic-

997 system:
http://nemiga.com/cat_spares/pet/por...3-2/29/402030/

991 system:
http://nemiga.com/cat_spares/pet/por...3/541u/402030/

I tried to ask the service adviser by email if indeed the pump can be confirmed to be burned, or if the pressure switches could be at fault. That was a week ago, no answer-no PIWIS report, just a verbal statement-I think I'll ask the person assigned to my case number to request a written report/estimate on what was diagnosed. Seems absurd that even that is worse than going to the dentist to get your wisdom teeth pulled

Both service adviser and manager were very nice, but once I was informed that the repair would not be 100%, emails and calls were not answered.
If I were you, I would ask to speak to the service manager or the general manager of the dealership. I would do this face to face and be very polite. Make sure that you clearly indicate to them that you are seeking their help and assistence and don't blame them. From their perspective, the number one problem is if your concerns can come across as you complaining about the dealer.

If you continue to work the system and follow up with emails/phone calls, you may still make progress but you are at the mercy of an analyst in PCNA reviewing your case who has to go by the book. No one of them will go out of their way to make it easy for you I'm afraid.

I think you have a strong case and I'm sure this will be resolved for you. Hang in there and dont give up. And whatever you do, dont take anything personally.

If worst comes to worse, seek the help of a lawyer who can make this move much faster and in your favor, but that will cost $$$$ sometimes more than the repair itself.
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:25 PM   #5
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I'll stop by tomorrow since I will be in the area-I'll ask them again for a PIWIS report, which is what I imagine was used to come to the conclusion that the compressor is burned-
Once I speak to them, I'll call the 800 number, maybe ask for the regional factory rep. I think it's reasonable and within my rights to complain and express dissatisfaction, I believe the whole system should have been replaced. From searching rennlist and other forums, a lot of cars had the complete replacement. Which might last a few years I suppose. I used mine quite sparingly-

Thanks for the replies
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Old 08-15-2016, 09:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by JB911 View Post
I'll stop by tomorrow since I will be in the area-I'll ask them again for a PIWIS report, which is what I imagine was used to come to the conclusion that the compressor is burned-
Once I speak to them, I'll call the 800 number, maybe ask for the regional factory rep. I think it's reasonable and within my rights to complain and express dissatisfaction, I believe the whole system should have been replaced. From searching rennlist and other forums, a lot of cars had the complete replacement. Which might last a few years I suppose. I used mine quite sparingly-

Thanks for the replies
You can certainly do that, but first you need to come up with a proper strategy and determine:

- Was this the service department's fault and thus you should complain to PCNA to get them to talk to the dealership which can then solve this for you?

OR

- The dealership did everything they could and as such you escalated the issue to PCNA who is not giving the attention your case needs.

I'm sure you'll agree that depending on which of the above applies, you need to choose either PCNA or the dealer to be on your side.

Also understand this, the minute you complain to PCNA and say "X dealer did Y to me and such and such", your chances of getting that X dealer to back you up for a PUMA case against PCNA is slim to none. Dealers catch A LOT of heat when the corporate headquarters receive a complaint. Dealers have internal survey and scoring systems which impact their bonuses etc. Customer satisfaction is extremely important and one bad case can be very bad for their business. As a result, if you are going to raise hell with the corporate office, be prepared that the dealer may look like they are doing things right by you, but they'll be very displeased.

I am not saying don't complain to PCNA. But a lot of times people get very upset and think that for every issue they can turn to the headquarters. By the time they realize how corporate politics work, the damage is already done. If I were you, I would call up the general manager/service manager personally and give them an opportunity to help you (that is if you are going to complain to PCNA).

Reading your case, this does appear to be an issue where your dealership does not have "their way" with PCNA. This actually all comes down to personal relationship. Here is how: Each dealer has a "warranty person" who deals with the field engineer/corporate contact where all warranty claims are submitted through. This person is the interface of the dealer as far as warranty claims go. The problem is, depending upon dealer's warranty red card status (i.e. how many warranty claims they are submitting vs how many of them are getting denied/red flagged), this relationship can play an extremely important role pushing a claim through. In my opinion, the dealer here is at fault and possibly because they are not in great terms with PCNA folks. That being said, by complaining to PCNA, I dont think you'll get this resolved anytime soon. If It were me, I'd speak to the GM and have him arrange a meeting with you and the field engineer that visits the dealer. A field engineer has to inspect the car and "deny" your claim if they opened a PUMA case. You can be present during this time and speak to him. I have resolved issues this way several times.

BMW and Audi are not flawless, trust me it all depends. I have several dozen connections in many dealers ranging from GMs to SMs to even field engineers. I know how this stuff works. There are horror stories in BMW as well. You have just been lucky.

What you want to highlight is that your issue happened BEFORE the CPO warranty ran out. If you continue using the word "good will", it starts sounding like as if the issue suddenly happened day T+1 (where T is the last day of warranty) and as if you are asking for mercy. That is not the case here. The pump issue in these cars are quite frequent, I'm guessing you have enough evidence (and field engineer's common sense) to explain that this happened way in advance of the CPO warranty running out.

Trust me it will work out. This is not unsolvable
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:05 AM   #7
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This dealer is brand new, opened around 4 months ago-I will indeed stress that the issue was not fixed while under CPO, and insist that it should have. They use the term "good will"-I've thought it over and it shouldn't be good will at all, it should be fix it as it should have been done. Why was it that both times i was unable to get a printed report other than the receipt saying it "couldn't be verified"?

What does the tech see when connected to the OBDII? My Durametric sees very limited information(the enthusiast one)The Pro Durametric seems just as limited. So I would expect the PIWIS system can print out exactly what is wrong but I wasn't given any written information-

I will continue to be polite, but will eventually have to ask who to appeal to at PCNA, perhaps in writing. From the last phone call with the service adviser, it seems he implied it was PCNA who denied 100% parts and labor-but I couldn't be sure. From what I recall, one of the things I was told was the age of the car. Yes, it's a 2011, but it's relatively low miles at 15K, and the CPO came with the car covering it 100% until the expiration date! So it's an insult to tell me something like that-I got pretty frustrated with such an irrational comment-
So the more I think about it, the job wasn't done. It wasn't repaired as requested under warranty, as I am entitled to, period.
Now, where to complain, with ought spending money on a lawyer? BBB? Asking the person assigned to my case number who is his superior?
It's quite infuriating and frustrating-the natural reaction is to start getting angry and screaming, that's for sure-
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Old 08-16-2016, 06:40 AM   #8
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First check your state's Lemon Law. Since it's the same problem re-occurring, it's very possible that you may be eligible for it since the dealer/manufacturer isn't making an effort to repair it correctly. Also, do you know if the vehicle had any record of Lift issues prior to your purchase? The dealer that YOU bought it from may not have access to that information and it certainly may have been left off of any carfax info. Try to find out who the vehicle was originally sold through and see if the car was also serviced at that location earlier in it's life. If it was, they may also have a record of the Lift system being checked or malfunctioning. If this is the case, it could weigh HEAVILY in your favor as there would be documented history prior even to your purchase. Don't expect to get this info from PCNA, you're going to have to do some sleuthing. Der Stig has given you some very good and sound advice. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that you are not going to get satisfaction from either dealership nor PCNA. This could get ugly and will probably sour the Porsche experience for you. Infact, I'd order a Macan (if you really were considering one) and then if this issue doesn't get resolved upon delivery, refuse the delivery and cancel based upon your experience with this car and let them know exactly why you've decided to not take delivery of the Macan, that you cannot trust that the dealership/PCNA/PAG will stand behind their product in the event of something going wrong. Also, reserve a spot in Atlanta for the Porsche Driving Experience, then later, cancel it, also citing your unresolved situation as why you've decided to cancel all interactions with Porsche AG associated business. Lastly, and this is one that you'd probably lose if it actually went to court, however, will be a real pain in the backside to those named, file lawsuits against, the two dealers who refused to do the work, file a separate personal lawsuit naming and against the actual Service Manager(s) who refused to do the work. Do the same for the actual General Manager(s) of the Dealership. Now this may seem frivolous and perhaps it is, however, once being served for depositions and their personal lives being disrupted as a result, all of a sudden, it's real possible that they take care of you just to stop the harassment. Pending lawsuits upon one's personal lives could impact someone quite negatively if they're considering home loans, refinancing, Personal Loans etc. and can even have implications if they're just looking for another job or any situation where a credit check is required and shows unresolved pending lawsuit. Let me also say, I am by no means a lawyer so take it for what it's worth, and this type of advice is strictly coming from my disdain for dealers/PCNA/PAG not having the integrity to honor their own warranty's and not standing behind the product that they sell. Sadly, Porsche seems to care less about second hand buyers, even when purchasing CPO through their own dealership network. Social media has also become such a huge part of business these days, so take that into consideration. Yelp reviews, Dealership/manufacturer Facebook pages, Youtube videos ala Nick, BBB and ANY type of source that gives you and your situation some exposure. Sorry, I guess I got a little heated lol This kind of stuff just makes me so angry!!!
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:40 PM   #9
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I bought my car with only 3K miles, full CPO. At the time, every recall, center lock hubs were replaced. I flew to Texas to purchase the car- It was the best one I could find in the entire US.
It was a great experience, the car was practically brand new. But I guess dealers want you to trade in for something else once warranty nears the end-
The only substitute would be a 911R, since I would not want a 991 GT3, so that's out of the question for me-

I just spoke to a woman at PCNA, so now that's the third person I spoke to. The guy that's assigned to my case number has supposedly been speaking to the dealership. But he was pretty vehement that he will not concede to 100% parts and labor. I will continue to maintain that the car was under 100% warranty and the problem was not fixed. Other owners that couldn't get a diagnose had the complete system replaced. One thread in the 991 section is about a car that had the entire new assembly, only to have to return the next day because it malfunctioned-

So I will be near the dealership this afternoon and decided I will stop by to speak in person. It's 30 miles away, and since I'll be in the area for work related issues I might as well see what they say. There must be a record from the PIWIS diagnosis.

Another related rennlist thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ft-system.html
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:47 PM   #10
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The nightmare continues-I did not stop by the dealer yesterday, after speaking to the rep at PCNA, who assured me he would contact the dealership and get me a printout of the diagnostics PIWIS report-hopefully with details on the compressor or pressure switches. He said he would ask the service adviser to contact me-but they're dragging their feet.

It would be nice if replacing the pressure switches took care of the problem-

I stopped by a friend's shop today, it was late but he hooked up his Autel Maxisys Elite to the OBDII port.
Not sure what to think--we saw a code 801B, and I took pictures of the pages on the Autel's screen-it's made to diagnose various cars, he had Porsche 997 but not 997 GT3 in his system. But apparently the lift, pressure switches showed up on the screen.

So I might request a full diagnostics from another dealership's service department since I still didn't get anything from the place I went to-
I've stated again to the PCNA rep that the car was under 100% warranty and the repair was not made-
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:55 PM   #11
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the thermal protection switch is very interesting - that should presumably trip before the system is damaged. I don't see this switch in the PET - wonder where it is and whether it can be replaced????
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:45 PM   #12
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Yeah maybe the thermal protection switch turned it off to keep it from blowing up-
There's not enough info available-could be under the black plastic cover-or the white connector behind the bottle(?)

Maybe the system can be reset? We had outside temperatures of around 101 degrees the last few weeks.
Made in Austria btw
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Old 08-22-2016, 06:58 PM   #13
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There is a technical article floating around that describes the lift system in quite a bit of detail. I tracked this article down at some point and have a text-only version. I just re-read and it specifically talks about the temperature switch:

Safety functions
For safety reasons, the control system includes various blocking conditions for which activation of the lift system is prevented or interrupted.
Activation of the lift system is permitted only if the vehicle has not exceeded a speed of 50 km/h. This limit prevents the changed vehicle aerodynamics of the raised vehicle from affecting the driving dynamics. If the speed limit is exceeded in raised position, the vehicle is automatically lowered to the basic level again.
Lowering of the vehicle is permitted only when the doors are closed. This condition prevents damage to the doors when parking over raised objects such as a kerb.
Frequent operation of the lift function in succession imposes a constant demand on the compressor to maintain the required system pressure. This can place a great thermal load on the compressor, especially if the outside temperatures are high. For this reason, a protective function contin-
uously monitors the compressor temperature. The temperature switch sends a signal to the control unit if the maximum permissible temperature is exceeded. The lifting function will then be deactivated until the compressor is ready for use again.


From the diagnostic readout you included above, it appears that your temperature limit is 'active', which I read to indicate that it is currently set, or limiting operation of the compressor. If this was taken right after the unit cycled numerous times, it might make sense. if was taken after an extended period of non-operation, then by definition the sensor is bad!
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Old 08-22-2016, 07:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinkm View Post
There is a technical article floating around that describes the lift system in quite a bit of detail. I tracked this article down at some point and have a text-only version. I just re-read and it specifically talks about the temperature switch:

Safety functions
For safety reasons, the control system includes various blocking conditions for which activation of the lift system is prevented or interrupted.
Activation of the lift system is permitted only if the vehicle has not exceeded a speed of 50 km/h. This limit prevents the changed vehicle aerodynamics of the raised vehicle from affecting the driving dynamics. If the speed limit is exceeded in raised position, the vehicle is automatically lowered to the basic level again.
Lowering of the vehicle is permitted only when the doors are closed. This condition prevents damage to the doors when parking over raised objects such as a kerb.
Frequent operation of the lift function in succession imposes a constant demand on the compressor to maintain the required system pressure. This can place a great thermal load on the compressor, especially if the outside temperatures are high. For this reason, a protective function contin-
uously monitors the compressor temperature. The temperature switch sends a signal to the control unit if the maximum permissible temperature is exceeded. The lifting function will then be deactivated until the compressor is ready for use again.


From the diagnostic readout you included above, it appears that your temperature limit is 'active', which I read to indicate that it is currently set, or limiting operation of the compressor. If this was taken right after the unit cycled numerous times, it might make sense. if was taken after an extended period of non-operation, then by definition the sensor is bad!
GREAT INFO!!!
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Old 08-23-2016, 03:03 AM   #15
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Thanks for the post-I tried to download your attachment but it couldn't be read on my Macbook for some reason-
But as you posted, I do suspect the thermal protection switch, or pressure switches- The thermal protection one might be active, as in ready to detect a problem, but the pressure switches might be at fault, who knows-so I've been on the phone with a polite yet tenacious rep at PCNA, who's been assigned to my case. He has repeatedly mentioned "good will", but I just looked over my work order/receipt dated June 8th-my car was under full CPO warranty with almost a month left.

The dealer was not able to diagnose a problem, even after I stated the Lift light wasn't coming on, kind of what happened last year when I brought up the same issue. So as posted, I'm now stuck with the Lift Malfunction message every time I drive. It comes on after a few minutes driving, and without even touching the lift button which I haven't tried since I came back from the un-diagnosed trip to dealer number 2.
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