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Anyone ever think that with all these dealers snatching up GT cars, then having to hold them, that bag gets heavier by the day. Next thing you know it's a fire sale to sell these stockpiled cars and prices plummet. I know they don't pay sellers what they really want for their cars. They paid at the low end but make cash in had an easy transaction. Just pondering and I actually have no idea what the future holds for these cars.
Depends on the dealer I think, some have very heavy backers(Merit) where they can hold for a very long time and have held through dips before. Others(Ryan/Grand Prix) are fairly new and you don't know their stability but to be honest there will not be any kind of fire sale publicly on these cars. If one of the dealers gets in trouble they will wholesale it to another dealer for quick/easy transaction that we won't even know about. Similar to how Zillow and others were bag holding single family homes when they bought them too high and market came down, they wholesaled them to other companies at a slight discount.
Anyone ever think that with all these dealers snatching up GT cars, then having to hold them, that bag gets heavier by the day. Next thing you know it's a fire sale to sell these stockpiled cars and prices plummet. I know they don't pay sellers what they really want for their cars. They paid at the low end but make cash in had an easy transaction. Just pondering and I actually have no idea what the future holds for these cars.
I very much think if your holding collector cars
specifically GT cars, you are holding a very heavy bag. Imo it looks like Covid era has fully ended and the GT market has reached full exhaustion.
Just simple supply and demand and supply is gluttonous. Those that think the 992 gt3rs, gt4Rs gt3 etc. prices cratering are not going to affect 991 and 997 and 993 are wishful thinking. 100+ gt4Rs and 100+ 992 gt3rs for sale is highest I have ever seen by a long shot of any previous gen GT or RS at any point in time. Today is very reminiscent of late 2018 when ADMs waned to 0, just a lottt of supply and once ADMs dropped, all the Porsche people that bought them because they can drive for free disappeared overnight
am I going to stop buying? Of course not
But if I was Grand Prix or merit or any other Indy, Id liquidate my inventory and go all in consignment biz model.
BH Ferrari has been doing this forever because of so many collector car market downturns
Anyone ever think that with all these dealers snatching up GT cars, then having to hold them, that bag gets heavier by the day. Next thing you know it's a fire sale to sell these stockpiled cars and prices plummet. I know they don't pay sellers what they really want for their cars. They paid at the low end but make cash in had an easy transaction. Just pondering and I actually have no idea what the future holds for these cars.
If a dealer has an actual show room they love to have these cars in there for marketing, which makes me think they will be the last to go on the floor in a fire sale. So if the market does tank I think they will be more worried about the exotics tanking and new production like they did in 2010 instead of the rare old stuff.
... even the new "ultra low" production car runs from any brand (sans exotics) seem to less rare than this esp the RS's.
I very much think if your holding collector cars
specifically GT cars, you are holding a very heavy bag. Imo it looks like Covid era has fully ended and the GT market has reached full exhaustion.
Just simple supply and demand and supply is gluttonous. Those that think the 992 gt3rs, gt4Rs gt3 etc. prices cratering are not going to affect 991 and 997 and 993 are wishful thinking. 100+ gt4Rs and 100+ 992 gt3rs for sale is highest I have ever seen by a long shot of any previous gen GT or RS at any point in time. Today is very reminiscent of late 2018 when ADMs waned to 0, just a lottt of supply and once ADMs dropped, all the Porsche people that bought them because they can drive for free disappeared overnight
am I going to stop buying? Of course not
But if I was Grand Prix or merit or any other Indy, Id liquidate my inventory and go all in consignment biz model.
BH Ferrari has been doing this forever because of so many collector car market downturns
I agree and think there's room for the 4RS/992 GT3/etc to come down but primarily because of production numbers. For example they have produced over 5,000 992 gt3's, 2350 GT4RS's, over 1800 992 GT3RS's so far. However the demographic buying the newer generation cars and those chasing the 997's is very different. Also if we compare production numbers, we have 450 997.1 GT3RS's in America and 650 997.2 GT3RS's and I would assume 10%+ of those have either been crashed or exported by now reducing the numbers even more. This means we won't really see more than 10 or so per sale of each generation RS at the same time.
Now my second opinion as to why the 997's won't be as affected by newer prices is the demographic that is buying them. It's typical an older demographic that wants something more raw and a drivers car that does not care about the hype/flexing of the new cars. That demographic is older and can hold these cars through any kind of dip because its their "dead mans" car and they wouldn't sell it unless something truly catastrophic happened(on top of alot of owners owning them for cash or owning them when they were 100-200k so they don't care if it drops in value because they are already way ahead) along with them not really having any new car to upgrade except a 4.0(way out of most peoples league).
While it would affect some people making a decision if they want a 997 RS or a newer RS for the same price but those decisions have already been made when anyone here could have bought a 991.1 3RS for 200k but instead paid 200k+ for a 997 3RS which I think will just continue. That's my 2 cents as to why I believe the 997 RS market is more insulated than the newer cars and will hold.
Now my second opinion as to why the 997's won't be as affected by newer prices is the demographic that is buying them. It's typical an older demographic that wants something more raw and a drivers car that does not care about the hype/flexing of the new cars. That demographic is older and can hold these cars through any kind of dip because its their "dead mans" car and they wouldn't sell it unless something truly catastrophic happened(on top of alot of owners owning them for cash or owning them when they were 100-200k so they don't care if it drops in value because they are already way ahead) along with them not really having any new car to upgrade except a 4.0(way out of most peoples league).
How many cars out of the TOTAL production were purchased in the last 2-3 years? Even if its 1/3 that means 66% of the owners have a basis on these cars at $150k or less, so there is a LONG way to go before most guys even blink... thats a solid base to keep these propped up.
I don't feel bad for any used car dealer in a compromising position, not only did they ALL get unbelievable pay outs for PPP loans to use for liquidity/inventory they rode 5 years of record breaking profits in the used market. They may have to watch a few things sell at a loss but they will do it from a mountaintop.
Now if you bought the car in the last year and you may not make your mortgage if this car was worth 70% of what you paid, then I'd prob bail... everyone looking at this is testing the waters if this is their "dead mans car", turns out it usually is.
I don't disagree, but I will share a few countering points written in haste (so maybe some incoherence) for the sake of discussion
1) there are like 3-4x (rough, not exact lol) the number of 992s as there are 997 GT cars. We're talking sub 2k worldwide production for each 997.1/997.2 GT variant. Compare that with 991, 992, and 982 GT models which have been comparatively pumped out.
2) Comparing 992 prices is a bit apples to oranges. Those cars hit production at the perfect time to create a demand frenzy (money was cheap). As the cars continued to be produced and people were able to get allocations, ADMs and used pricing fell sharply. But here's the kicker, there's always going to be another version similar to the existing 992 GT cars...maybe it's not identical, but the same ethos. So the supply will keep increasing until we go hybrid, electric, or whichever alternative propulsion you think is next (if it even happens). The shift from 997 to 991 was much starker...especially given it's the last of the manual RS cars and last of the hydraulic power steering 911s. People care more about that than some think.
Just my .02. Cars are fun, but definitely not an investment.
Just my .02. Cars are fun, but definitely not an investment.
Yea to my earlier point if a lot of the 2021-24 992 GT3s and all of the 992 GT3RS were bought with ADM, the entire basis on that as an asset is fubar. Cost will be 20-30% more than even new models which will come with incentives. The real winners here will be the used car guys that played musical chairs and sat down earlier this year, cause I don't know who is going to buy your used 992 GT3 you paid $240k for when next year I can get a 2025 GT3 for $210k. Porsche has a lot of pricing shenanigans to think about to keep the music bumping.
Happens quite often with all types of cars not just high end ones. Dealers from US buy cars from Canada to flip and vice versa. With the 25 year import rule many dealers buy cars from Europe that you couldnt get in the states and flip them to buyers here. See it quite often with 964 RS and seems like majority of the ones that come for sale go to BaT and not done privately. The cars are of varying quality.
Yea to my earlier point if a lot of the 2021-24 992 GT3s and all of the 992 GT3RS were bought with ADM, the entire basis on that as an asset is fubar. Cost will be 20-30% more than even new models which will come with incentives. The real winners here will be the used car guys that played musical chairs and sat down earlier this year, cause I don't know who is going to buy your used 992 GT3 you paid $240k for when next year I can get a 2025 GT3 for $210k. Porsche has a lot of pricing shenanigans to think about to keep the music bumping.
I wish a 992.2 GT3 could be had for $210k, haha. Even before it has been announced, Im competing with people who have so much money that someone like me couldnt get it at MSRP. The hype around new models only makes them more expensive, and it also shines a spotlight on the older legends, which keeps prices on 997s steady.
im no guru of the green and would never tell anyone to follow my advice. i see it kinda the same as many have stated above. i think a lot of the price demand for the 997 gt cars is due to the production run. look at the 964's ( for the life of me i cant believe how that market has gone up over the years for even a run of the mill 964 ). the total production run of the 964 was roughly 60k cars. about 2300 were the RS of which something like 700 were RS america's. then there was the non turbo widebody with only a small production run. both of those cars hold a premium over the rest of the 964 market due to the limited numbers made.
take the over all GT market.
the first link just shows the 3rs numbers for the 997 and 991 cars, but has it broken down for NA and ROW. in general and common trend which is interesting, the NA are roughly 30% of the total across all generations. and shocking the total for the 997 ( both gens ) is 34% of the total number of 991 ( both gens ) made for the NA market.
the second link adds the gt3 into the mix with the rs. its actually astonishing how many were actually made world wide. i only know the numbers for the 997 as i didnt care to buy the 991. there were 962 .1 gt3 which accounts for 40% of the ww production and the same trend falls for the .2. overall, there were 7740 997 gt cars produced and a whopping 25,180 991 cars. the 991.2 gt3 production numbers are higher than the entire line of 997 cars combined.
there is something to be said of the lower production cars holding value over time. and then throw in the last of the this and last of the thats, it all adds value to those who seek those specs. im not holding this car because i think it will be a good investment, in fact im pretty sure if i add up the purchase price, add in the maintenance , and consumable cost over how ever long i own it, and then top that off with the cost of the parts for refreshing a 20 yr old car, the cost of parts ill put into it for fun, im pretty dam sure if i ever tally it, i would vomit and drop to the floor on the spot. im holding this car because it a pleasure to drive. i cant stand pdk, even though i know its so much faster and smoother, its like playing a sim on a rig. is the tech better in the newer cars, yeah, and its nice to have a high end car feel like what it cost with the interior too. but thats not why any of us who seek out a 997 gt car want.
i agree the dealers screwing with the market will bite them and some of us in the **** when its time to sell. probably most of us that are still current on this forum, let alone this thread are of the mind that they will never sell. maybe some will maybe some wont. i dont plan to sell, but i also dont plan to look at it as an investment.
Yesterday, 01:35 PM
