My Singer 911 2014 Restoration
11-20-2014, 11:41 PM
#421
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
will be sorted out!
11-28-2014, 02:41 AM
#423
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 17,107
Likes: 0
Received 258 Likes
on
172 Posts
who here has put any serious miles on their Singer? Any pros/cons thus far?
It appears a fully restored 73RS is about the same price as a Singer.... Any thoughts on this?
It appears a fully restored 73RS is about the same price as a Singer.... Any thoughts on this?
Last edited by tcsracing1; 11-28-2014 at 10:22 PM.
11-29-2014, 11:35 AM
#424
Drifting
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Belmont Shore in Long Beach CA
Posts: 2,740
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Should you buy a Singer or 73RS?
In the long run the Porsche aficionados would probably put more stock in the 73RS over the Singer. Though that doesn't mean I wouldn't want a singer as well and would more than likely drive it far more than the 73RS!
Your thoughts?
11-29-2014, 11:43 AM
#425
Any thoughts on what; question is a little ambiguous?
Should you buy a Singer or 73RS?
In the long run the Porsche aficionados would probably put more stock in the 73RS over the Singer. Though that doesn't mean I wouldn't want a singer as well and would more than likely drive it far more than the 73RS!
Your thoughts?
Should you buy a Singer or 73RS?
In the long run the Porsche aficionados would probably put more stock in the 73RS over the Singer. Though that doesn't mean I wouldn't want a singer as well and would more than likely drive it far more than the 73RS!
Your thoughts?
11-29-2014, 12:15 PM
#426
The "both" answer is the usual choice of investors in any speculative market --you could see it optimistically as participating in the average of both gains, or you could be skeptical and argue that one or both segments will eventually experience an abrupt "correction" or reversion to some more realistic rate of price change. This latter observation is statistically far more likely, while the former is the kind of buoyant exuberance that can continue on for so long (as has been the case for the last three years or so in the stock market) that it's no longer a matter of if, but when, so the job becomes one of timing the inevitable. As they say, prices tend to go up the stairs and come down the elevator (sometimes the vacant elevator shaft.) In the Porsche market, there's no historically significant precedent, nor is there any way of determining the "whys and wherefores" leading to the seemingly inexhaustible demand for a thing that is undefined other than to be in short supply. Which brings me to the observation that when speculators, especially the novices, come into a market en masse, they tend to be called "weak hands" and will likely fold early and often. This weakness will return to the market supply the least appealing cars at the highest prices -- this in turn sours the experience for would-be "greater fools" on two counts: they're getting mediocre cars; and, they're losing value with reports of each successive sale. It can be hard to see while it's happening, but once the time sample becomes long enough, the inflection downwards becomes evident. Will that have been 2014? 2016? That would raise the topic of timing, which is more religion than science. Will this kind of speculator market become cyclical, driven by economics and geared to some other supply-and-demand factor, or will it be a statistical model resembling some other well-documented form of price discovery or market manipulation.
As with the 993 market starting with the turbo s and spreading to almost any and all 993's, and the Carrera GT market, I fear the prime mover is market manipulation. Long term speculators involved in the market as brokers and dealers setting low expectations for private sellers and setting dishonestly high prices to retail or auction buyer with an open-ended time frame to wait for demand at those higher prices. I expect we'll see wider and wider gaps between reported sales and actual, real bids on cars. Sure, we'll see a perfect '73 RS go for a million due to provenance, some special connection to the Porsche family, some unique event in history, and that will buoy some future sales, but then the average millionaire with his '73 RS will try to get $400K and find even that seemingly modest number will not find union of willing buyer and willing seller.
Or so it seems to me.
As with the 993 market starting with the turbo s and spreading to almost any and all 993's, and the Carrera GT market, I fear the prime mover is market manipulation. Long term speculators involved in the market as brokers and dealers setting low expectations for private sellers and setting dishonestly high prices to retail or auction buyer with an open-ended time frame to wait for demand at those higher prices. I expect we'll see wider and wider gaps between reported sales and actual, real bids on cars. Sure, we'll see a perfect '73 RS go for a million due to provenance, some special connection to the Porsche family, some unique event in history, and that will buoy some future sales, but then the average millionaire with his '73 RS will try to get $400K and find even that seemingly modest number will not find union of willing buyer and willing seller.
Or so it seems to me.
11-29-2014, 12:42 PM
#427
Burning Brakes
The "both" answer is the usual choice of investors in any speculative market --you could see it optimistically as participating in the average of both gains, or you could be skeptical and argue that one or both segments will eventually experience an abrupt "correction" or reversion to some more realistic rate of price change. This latter observation is statistically far more likely, while the former is the kind of buoyant exuberance that can continue on for so long (as has been the case for the last three years or so in the stock market) that it's no longer a matter of if, but when, so the job becomes one of timing the inevitable. As they say, prices tend to go up the stairs and come down the elevator (sometimes the vacant elevator shaft.) In the Porsche market, there's no historically significant precedent, nor is there any way of determining the "whys and wherefores" leading to the seemingly inexhaustible demand for a thing that is undefined other than to be in short supply. Which brings me to the observation that when speculators, especially the novices, come into a market en masse, they tend to be called "weak hands" and will likely fold early and often. This weakness will return to the market supply the least appealing cars at the highest prices -- this in turn sours the experience for would-be "greater fools" on two counts: they're getting mediocre cars; and, they're losing value with reports of each successive sale. It can be hard to see while it's happening, but once the time sample becomes long enough, the inflection downwards becomes evident. Will that have been 2014? 2016? That would raise the topic of timing, which is more religion than science. Will this kind of speculator market become cyclical, driven by economics and geared to some other supply-and-demand factor, or will it be a statistical model resembling some other well-documented form of price discovery or market manipulation. As with the 993 market starting with the turbo s and spreading to almost any and all 993's, and the Carrera GT market, I fear the prime mover is market manipulation. Long term speculators involved in the market as brokers and dealers setting low expectations for private sellers and setting dishonestly high prices to retail or auction buyer with an open-ended time frame to wait for demand at those higher prices. I expect we'll see wider and wider gaps between reported sales and actual, real bids on cars. Sure, we'll see a perfect '73 RS go for a million due to provenance, some special connection to the Porsche family, some unique event in history, and that will buoy some future sales, but then the average millionaire with his '73 RS will try to get $400K and find even that seemingly modest number will not find union of willing buyer and willing seller. Or so it seems to me.
Wow!
Amen!
11-29-2014, 01:40 PM
#430
Nordschleife Master
Find me a nicely restored 73rs for the cost of a Singer and I'll buy it. Last I've seen nice RSes are two to three times the price of a Singer. An early S is closer to the price of a Singer.
11-29-2014, 04:25 PM
#433
Yes, I'm aware of an actual recent sale of an RS touring for over 1MM, and it was purchased for more than a Singer less than 3 years ago. Appreciation on the early cars, early RS's is unfathomable so it's easy to fall behind the current reality.
11-29-2014, 04:29 PM
#434
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 17,107
Likes: 0
Received 258 Likes
on
172 Posts
Looks like the singer is indeed not on par but half price of a 73' RS....
Prices have really jumped since I last watched them sell for $300-500k
Given the price points Id have to go with the Singer
