VegasSpeedy

One last thing...for the Love of God...please do NOT compare Magnus builds with Singers. I assure you that are not in the same league. Not even close.

Singers are on the level of Pagani. Pure art.

You have to see one to truly get it. Rob and his crew are modern Michelangelos of the car world. Once in a generation type guys.

(If anything they could learn something from Magnus when it comes to over exposure and hype.)

Singer needs to come out with a mid-$200s car. Rob, you reading this?

Carrera GT

Let's be clear? Love of God?

These cars are examples of guys are having fun with 911's. They are cut from the same cloth. I wouldn't compare Magnus Walker with Norbert Singer, that's just uninformed, but the two cars, they're very much comparable.

While the Singer is an interesting idea that has yet to really come to completion, I have to say, it cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Pagani. Pagani is simply head and shoulders above and not even in the same dimension. The 911 is a wonderful car and the focus of my attention, but there's no sense or reason to use the 911 or the achievements of Mr Singer to elevate a retro-bodied 964 to be compared to a Pagani, it's just inappropriate. It is demeaning to Singer and it is disrespectful to Pagani.

VegasSpeedy

Singers are being made...and sold. His initial batch of 10 cars is sold or almost completely sold out. Sold out with a start price of $400k. Check the site out and look at the build sheet: http://singervehicledesign.com/

As far as comparing Singer with Pagani.

I have been to Pagani in Italy...and to Singers in SoCal... I have met the guys, driven the cars. I can assure you they are all cut from the same cloth. Same passion, same focus...same OCD level of detail.

The videos, articles etc don't truly convey the level of perfection Rob has created.

If given the chance you need to go see/ drive a Singer to truly get it.

Bottom line for me...When you think of Singer you think of their products. The first image that pops into your mind is a gorgeous 911. Rob has made the car the star. When you think of Magnus what is the first thing that you see in your minds eye. Him. He is the star.

Not taking anything away from anyone. Just pointing out the difference of intention.

911Jetta

I love what Singer is doing to the 964. I especially appreciate the detail and quality that goes into each car.

Since "Pagani-level" of design and construction has been discussed, I think it's only fair to mention Robert Linton's creation, America GS 3.8 Hardtop Roadster. As you'll quickly see, it's definitely at Pagani's level. I think Robert Linton was quoted as saying he could get a 964 down to 1,700 lbs!

I've long wanted to introduce Mr. Linton to Mr. Dickinson... a 1,700 lbs. "Cartridge Limited" Singer, would be the ultimate reimagined 911! (and the first $1,000,000 Singer also)

Component group by component group has been documented in this wonderful thread: America GS Consolidated Thread.

SA Mike

Sorry I thought someone said $225-250K at Pebble Beach..........and no your not getting in my pants

Carrera GT

What Linton has done is beyond superlatives; he's literally unique in his ability to go from imagination to installation. Any number of us have ridden a great carbon fibre framed bike or a Ducati and said "wouldn't it be great if 911 suspension was a composite" but I can't think of too many wizards who've actually gone and built something that works and doesn't just snap at the first edge that shows up as a flaring red battle front on the CFD images. : )

That said, I think Pagani is still in a separate echelon and builds production cars, not one off "art or machine?" pieces. I don't even like half of what I see in a Pagani, but that's just my luddite 911 way; I still love the car. It's a car I would compare to a Carrera GT in terms of emotion and fantasy.

As has been lamented here -- and I count myself amongst those who would love to have a car built up from Littons parts, but I just can't justify the cost for my purposes -- if only the likes of Walker or Singer would work a deal with Litton to license some of his parts and put it all into a sensibly priced car (keep in mind, CF is no longer the unreachably expensive aerospace magic fabric it once was.)

Surely by now we could have a composite chassis monocoque integrated with panels and passenger cell, all in the exact mechanical form of the 911, but with all the goodness of being lighter and more rigid, yet stronger and more durable. Push rod suspension, lighter, smaller components, compressed air starter, and needing only a modest engine simply because everything gets easier as weight shrinks. Tires and brakes get smaller and run cooler. Gearboxes and suspension become lighter and smaller because they're doing much less work. It all makes much more sense and 3200lbs and 500hp. And I dare say, it's simply more rewarding to drive such a car. But here we are, decades later and cars just ain't going that way.

GTgears

Let's not forget where Magnus came from:
http://www.seriousclothing.com/aboutus.html

Slash and many other A list Hollywood celebrities wear his clothes and have for years. Serious paid for the Porsches he's now building and he's spring boarding it into the Urban Outlaw brand using all the same manufacturing contacts and factories that made him a ton of money in the last 20 years.

mooty

spec 911 and GTL guys are racing. i am only good for SERIOUS RECREATION. believe me, if i had any talent at driving, i'll be racing now.

singer to $$$ for me
magnus, i can't get over his imagery. i see him not his car.
but i love R gruppe. they didn't invite me to join, sob sob.
one of the true porsche enthusiats, more so than leno and such is our own jackolsen. the guy has ONE car and it's far from being perfect... probably has more paint chip on one panel than most ppl here's whole car.... he drives to supermkt, hauls tires on top of the car to TH from LA or was it SD, throws on a fkg large wing at TH and go racing. that's what is really is all about. driving and doing it. i had many cars, i just wish i had the ***** and craziness that jack has and actually go have some fun instead of staring at the metal parked in my garage and worry about this that this that that this that this.with all due respect to pagoni, singer, linton, magnus.... i know whom i am trying to emulate... that's is to learn to just enjoy the damn thing. jack, you give classes?

KaiB

Well said Mooty, well said.

Olsen's got it right. I have a friend who does the same thing, in a GT4S car of all things.

Tires on top, drive 10 hours, pull everything out of the car and goes racing - real racing. Then he drives 10 hours home.

Respect for folks like this. I happen to enjoy the A/C in my trailer too much.

JackOlsen

Thanks very much for that, mooty and KaiB.

Maybe the secret to wringing a whole lot out of a 911 is to not be able to afford a very nice one.

On the thread's topic, I think Magnus Walker and Rob Dickinson are in completely different categories. Magnus is bringing a particular aesthetic to the early 911s, almost like you'd expect if Porsche brought in Ralph Lauren or Donatella Versace or whoever (I don't know much about fashion) to consult on a special style-driven version of the 911. To me, that's completely different from something like Alois Ruf, where the emphasis is on improving on the performance of a 911 model.

And Rob is somewhere in between those two. Performance-wise, the Singer is probably inferior to a same-price offering from Porsche. Although I don't know that Porsche has a model in the $400,000-600,000 range. I don't think you'll ever see a Singer involved in a professional racing series. But I doubt Singer would claim anything like that. Rob is bringing his sense of style together with the notion of bringing an early 911 up to modern standards in terms of power, comfort and technology. I think that Singer's niche is with the 'supercar' crowd, and it's actually on the low end of the budget spectrum in that world. And its appeal is that it isn't just the latest and greatest way to go 200 mph and impress all of your rich friends. It's also giving a very clear nod to the history of the 911, and making an argument against the idea that the latest ideas are also the greatest.

I think there are some buyers in that niche. Whether there are enough to sustain a company is hard to say. As for Magnus, I don't know how big a business he'd want to build or what exactly that would look like. I doubt he has the sort of money sunk into his operation that Rob has. But then, I know less about running a business than I do about fashion.

VegasSpeedy

this site appears to be no longer...
http://www.seriousclothing.com/aboutus.html

So it would appear that Urban Outlaw is the next business.

Singer. Little known fact. They ARE connected with Porsche at the highest of levels.

aussie jimmy

norbert singer was ze german at the factory ya, creating ze racecars, ya?

nothing to do with singer the car company.

ShootingStar

That is correct good sir.

I just went back and listened to the Adam Carolla podcast that had Rob Dickinson on it. He lists out some of the prices for stuff on the car.

In short, he said the amount of partners he has to provide stuff for the car is "a small village".

911Jetta

Exactly. It took me a few years longer than I wanted to finally park a 911 in my garage, so I'm not going to let sit in the garage.

Mooty, I've read a ton of your posts, so I know a little bit about your interests... may I humbly suggest the following thread: "Mooty buys a daily driver, the first 90 days with a 964". These cars aren't expensive (to you guys) and it would be fun for you to get back to that "everyday magic" feeling these cars so easily provide. Commute with it, do Home Depot runs, take the kids on errands. Drive it every where and everyday... then sell the car at the end of the 90 day experiment...

GTgears

That is absolutely the case. I posted the old link since I think the majority of people don't know where Magnus came from. They just see this cult of personality who popped up out of nowhere. You don't just have a million dollar loft and half a million dollars worth of vintage Porsches sitting around and start dawdling with builds.

Magnus is a shrewd businessman and while I've met him and think he's a nice guy I've never held any false conception that he's building these cars purely from the love. That's not to say that his love of the marque isn't pure or real. That's just to say that from day one of him becoming "public" there's been an agenda in place and in saying that I am in no way criticising his agenda. As someone said earlier in this thread there's nothing wrong with making money.

I'm not going to post the current link. Don't want to seem like I'm pushing his business but you can find it easy enough. All one has to do is add "store" to the end of the previously listed obsolete url.

As for the earlier discussion of Magnus's quality versus Singer's? Only direct input on that is that I can say that they both get their upgraded gearbox parts from the same vendor...