VIDEO: Chris Harris drives the new GT3
06-14-2013, 06:11 PM
#76
Drifting
The major explanation as to why the GTR is faster than anything else is confidence. Same was said by Randy Pobst about the ZR1 when compared to the SRT Viper. I can totally see that. The 911 is a compromised strategy from a confidence inspiration standpoint - and I have experienced this personally coming from BMWs and BMW race cars. IN fact I was just reminded about this last weekend at COTA. My RS grenaded a pressure plate/clutch and I was fortunate to have a friend let me drive his GTS4 M3 race car.
Hey i'm not saying the new gt3 is not cool, its amazing. My point i'm illustrating, like Pete (savyboy) i just dont buy the BS PAG is feeding us... that's my point . By feeding us i mean AP statement that pdk was the only solution... thats it. Yes i agree it is very illogical to make logic of our stupid hobby.
06-14-2013, 06:17 PM
#77
Rennlist Member
I'm very interested in driving the 991. I love the GT3 package - certainly my favorite car in it's price bracket. Every time I try something different, I'm longing to return back to the GT3.
That said, I have no idea how much of my passion for these cars is attributed to rowing my own gears. I don't know, but there is one way to find out.
That said, I have no idea how much of my passion for these cars is attributed to rowing my own gears. I don't know, but there is one way to find out.
06-14-2013, 06:19 PM
#78
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Rad your paddle shift no 3rd pedal "manual" transmission has one clutch. Mine has two clutches. Based on the world road show, the wet clutch PDK is very durable. A 997.2 Turbo S enjoyed over 250 "launches" in a week and did not suffer.
My take is that as a Ferrari fan boy
you have to claim the rather primitive single clutch F1 automatic is superior to PDK although all the new Ferraris have also gone to a dual clutch design including the 458 Challenge.
My take is that as a Ferrari fan boy
you have to claim the rather primitive single clutch F1 automatic is superior to PDK although all the new Ferraris have also gone to a dual clutch design including the 458 Challenge.PDK/DCT/DSG/SSG are a superior design as a replacement to automatic transmissions. They are all boring to drive, feel like a CVT. Notice the artificial lag introduced by AP and his team in the PDK-S, no wonder they initially claimed a less than 200ms gear change, now down to less than 100ms. Essentially, they're making PDK-S shift just a tad slower than PDK, to induce the shift sensation and kick on upshift non-existent in most DCT transmission. This is actually good, because it provides a nicer feedback.
F430 shifts in 150ms, 16M/GTO/Scuderia do it in 60ms (try as fast as possible to start/stop a stopwatch to get the idea of what 60ms is).
The obsolete transmission in the F430 (single clutch) was used in racing, and still is in use in Racing. The transmission is solid, the clutch is solid (I'm on my original clutch over 4 years old with multiple drag races, autoX, track days and plenty of miles). The hydraulics of the F1 transmission are fantastic. Weak link: electronic sensors that cannot handle the heat, an actuator that bends, two easy fixes: insulated sensors and the upgraded forged actuator proven by many racers with Fiats.
Aventador: 50ms
The Selespeed add-on to these manual transmissions add just 8 lbs, the DCT/PDK/SSG/ transmissions add 65-85 lbs compared to the manual transmission options (the exception VW, as they use a hybrid PDK in the manual transmission 991).
More weight <> Superior
Less Feedback <> Superior
More Expensive <> Superior
Higher Maintenance Costs <> Superior
Do this test: hard acceleration in 4th gear on the upper end of the RPM, then sudden hard braking with simultaneuous 2 quick downshifts, and notice your PDK going confused, rather than engaging the commands.
DCT is what makes a 458/California boring to drive. Yes, they are faster cars than the 360/F430, but a 360 manual or F430 manual is more fun and involving, and a Scuderia in the middle of F430/360 Manual and 458 Italia for driving involvement, while bringing a lot more fun in other areas (handling, braking, engine sound, vibrations, etc).
06-14-2013, 06:39 PM
#79
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Wow, really?
You're trying to use logic to analyze an illogical hobby. It's like screwing for virginity. We all have an emotional attachment to these cars - how they make us feel - and that's why we own them. Not because they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Certainly they're not the fastest thing out there...by a long shot.
Besides, if you add price to the equation (190vs130k), your analysis encounters a huge bust.
Maybe a more adequate comparison would be to the 2010 GT3. 15 second delta at the ring - that's an eternity.
You're trying to use logic to analyze an illogical hobby. It's like screwing for virginity. We all have an emotional attachment to these cars - how they make us feel - and that's why we own them. Not because they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. Certainly they're not the fastest thing out there...by a long shot.
Besides, if you add price to the equation (190vs130k), your analysis encounters a huge bust.
Maybe a more adequate comparison would be to the 2010 GT3. 15 second delta at the ring - that's an eternity.
The new MPSC2 and DSMR tires are a lot stickiers than the old Corsa and MPSC N-Spec. If these tires gained 0.5 secs per 60 secs of track time, these new tires would give the 991-WGT3 another 4 secs advantage.
So, 9 secs of those 15 secs are the result of tires and transmission. Leaving the other 6 secs to the new Aero, 40mm wider front track, better weight distribution, the much closer ratios in the transmission, the 9k redline, the supposedly awesome RWS, and the extra 40Hp.
I seriously question the 1-car length advantage of a sequential transmission over a manual transmission. I know many lazy manual transmission shifters out there, but well driven manual transmission cars don't take 500ms (0.5 secs) to shift, they take under 200ms, and it has been proven with data.
4.0RS is on a different performance level compared to the 991WGT3. My bet is the 991WGT3 being slightly slower on a racetrack compared to the 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 (on equal track tires), and who knows what the 991WGT3 will break.
Drag racing, the 991-WGT3 will be faster, so any illegal street race or drag strip race will be an advantage for the 991WGT3, but for drag racing and street racing the 997.2 Turbo is a better weapon.
06-14-2013, 08:30 PM
#80
Drifting
I'm very interested in driving the 991. I love the GT3 package - certainly my favorite car in it's price bracket. Every time I try something different, I'm longing to return back to the GT3.
That said, I have no idea how much of my passion for these cars is attributed to rowing my own gears. I don't know, but there is one way to find out.
That said, I have no idea how much of my passion for these cars is attributed to rowing my own gears. I don't know, but there is one way to find out.
06-14-2013, 08:47 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
The 991GT3 to RS4.0 comparison is going to be as fair as comparisons get unless someone grabs a drive train from a 4.0 and shoves it into a 991 chassis. The lap difference is f%@k all at 2sec between the them...
Why? They are both wide body, they both are about the 500hp mark (don't forget AP said 475 was very conservative suggesting closer to 500 for 991), the 4.0 has a weight saving which is offset by better tyre technology on the new car. This leaves 2 advances of the new car over old, the chassis and the gearbox! If the new chassis which gave the latest Carrera S a 10sec improvement in time and the new PDK which is good for 5sec in other models around the ring combined have yielded a 2sec advantage over a 6speed manually shifted, previous gen chassis car, then I'll take mine with the 4.0RS manual drivetrain thanks....
No use comparing the 991 car to its 997.2 predecessor. Wide body to narrow body, new chassis to old, 60-70hp difference... They are miles apart in specs and thus the lap difference...
As John pointed out, would luv to see what a 4.0RS drivetrain in the 991 chassis would have done around the NBR...
Why? They are both wide body, they both are about the 500hp mark (don't forget AP said 475 was very conservative suggesting closer to 500 for 991), the 4.0 has a weight saving which is offset by better tyre technology on the new car. This leaves 2 advances of the new car over old, the chassis and the gearbox! If the new chassis which gave the latest Carrera S a 10sec improvement in time and the new PDK which is good for 5sec in other models around the ring combined have yielded a 2sec advantage over a 6speed manually shifted, previous gen chassis car, then I'll take mine with the 4.0RS manual drivetrain thanks....
No use comparing the 991 car to its 997.2 predecessor. Wide body to narrow body, new chassis to old, 60-70hp difference... They are miles apart in specs and thus the lap difference...
As John pointed out, would luv to see what a 4.0RS drivetrain in the 991 chassis would have done around the NBR...
06-14-2013, 08:50 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
The 991GT3 to RS4.0 comparison is going to be as fair as comparisons get unless someone grabs a drive train from a 4.0 and shoves it into a 991 chassis. The lap difference is f%@k all at 2sec between the them...
Why? They are both wide body, they both are about the 500hp mark (don't forget AP said 475 was very conservative suggesting closer to 500 for 991), the 4.0 has a weight saving which is offset by better tyre technology on the new car. This leaves 2 advances of the new car over old, the chassis and the gearbox! If the new chassis which gave the latest Carrera S a 10sec improvement in time and the new PDK which is good for 5sec in other models around the ring combined have yielded a 2sec advantage over a 6speed manually shifted, previous gen chassis car, then I'll take mine with the 4.0RS manual drivetrain thanks....
No use comparing the 991 car to its 997.2 predecessor. Wide body to narrow body, new chassis to old, 60-70hp difference... They are miles apart in specs and thus the lap difference...
As John pointed out, would luv to see what a 4.0RS drivetrain in the 991 chassis would have done around the NBR...
Why? They are both wide body, they both are about the 500hp mark (don't forget AP said 475 was very conservative suggesting closer to 500 for 991), the 4.0 has a weight saving which is offset by better tyre technology on the new car. This leaves 2 advances of the new car over old, the chassis and the gearbox! If the new chassis which gave the latest Carrera S a 10sec improvement in time and the new PDK which is good for 5sec in other models around the ring combined have yielded a 2sec advantage over a 6speed manually shifted, previous gen chassis car, then I'll take mine with the 4.0RS manual drivetrain thanks....
No use comparing the 991 car to its 997.2 predecessor. Wide body to narrow body, new chassis to old, 60-70hp difference... They are miles apart in specs and thus the lap difference...
As John pointed out, would luv to see what a 4.0RS drivetrain in the 991 chassis would have done around the NBR...
06-14-2013, 09:06 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
furthermore, the price difference of $50-60k mentioned above between the 4.0RS and 991 GT3 is irrelevant as it was largely payable for the exclusivity of the 4.0 and not technology... What would be the price of the 991 GT3 if limited to 600 worldwide? $200k? They've previously charged that kind of money for anniversary model Carreras...
06-14-2013, 10:15 PM
#84
Race Director
As you know when you are doing statistical analyst. That net difference of .004 is nothing. If we had a standard deviation of error of .05, that would essentially mean their is no diffrence between the 4.0 and the 991 gt3.
Like I said, unless you don't want to understand statistical math, that .004 can be attributed to weather/driver/tires./improvement of circuit... basically what im sayings one cannot with 100% certain conclusion say the 991 gt3 is faster then a 4.0 with a pro driver... around the ring. Yes it is easier to drive the new 911 gt3, and the new gt3 has more aero. Please go read the launch press.
The biggest benefit is the transmission. If the transmission gains .5 of a car length per shift, how many shifts are their in the ring with a 4.0 ?
Lets keep a few things fix for a math analyst.
If the chassis are identically as good, that means, the only variable would be every shift the 911 gt3 should in theory gain .4 seconds...per AP stating .5 car lenght gain per shift. That means
S = amounts of up ****s per ring lap
S(.4)= x
If their is 50 up shifts, that means, that new gt3 should gain 20 seconds in shifting over the course of the ring.
How about down shifting ? Say 50 times... if its improving my braking points in reducing time and increasing my entry speed, lets say .5 of a second
D = down shifts
d(.5) = x
25 seconds
that means that transmission is worth 45 seconds ?
Yes only 2 seconds faster at the ring. Why ?
Is it the extra 25hp ?
Why is the new turbo slower then the gt3 by 3 seconds, when it has 75 hp more ?
Because by your theory, the turbo should be faster.
To me, what its telling me is, if the DCT gains so much time mathematically wise over every shift, why only 2 seconds faster.
What is the big flaw with the car that its no 40 seconds faster per every shift.
Weight ?
Chassi ?
Please explain with math. I like numbers.
Like I said, unless you don't want to understand statistical math, that .004 can be attributed to weather/driver/tires./improvement of circuit... basically what im sayings one cannot with 100% certain conclusion say the 991 gt3 is faster then a 4.0 with a pro driver... around the ring. Yes it is easier to drive the new 911 gt3, and the new gt3 has more aero. Please go read the launch press.
The biggest benefit is the transmission. If the transmission gains .5 of a car length per shift, how many shifts are their in the ring with a 4.0 ?
Lets keep a few things fix for a math analyst.
If the chassis are identically as good, that means, the only variable would be every shift the 911 gt3 should in theory gain .4 seconds...per AP stating .5 car lenght gain per shift. That means
S = amounts of up ****s per ring lap
S(.4)= x
If their is 50 up shifts, that means, that new gt3 should gain 20 seconds in shifting over the course of the ring.
How about down shifting ? Say 50 times... if its improving my braking points in reducing time and increasing my entry speed, lets say .5 of a second
D = down shifts
d(.5) = x
25 seconds
that means that transmission is worth 45 seconds ?
Yes only 2 seconds faster at the ring. Why ?
Is it the extra 25hp ?
Why is the new turbo slower then the gt3 by 3 seconds, when it has 75 hp more ?
Because by your theory, the turbo should be faster.
To me, what its telling me is, if the DCT gains so much time mathematically wise over every shift, why only 2 seconds faster.
What is the big flaw with the car that its no 40 seconds faster per every shift.
Weight ?
Chassi ?
Please explain with math. I like numbers.
I know what AP said about a 1/2 car length gain on every shift, but he may have been speaking more generally about ideal conditions. The reason for PDK's advantage is that acceleration is interrupted for less time during each shift than with a MT. The higher the rate of acceleration (in the lower gears for example) the bigger the advantage. A 4-5 or 5-6 shift, where the car's ROA is less won't result in a 1/2 car length advantage. (Someone help me out if I've go the physics of this wrong). Anyway, on a fast track like the Ring, with a lot of high speed shifts, I think assuming a 1/2 car length advantage with each of 50 shifts is overstating things.
I think it's also an overstatement to assume a .5 second advantage on every downshift, especially in the hands of the caliber of driver that's going to be able to run a mid 7:20's time in the first place.
The 4.0 is quite a bit lighter than the GT3, has more rear rubber, and more HP and torque. Also, the 7:25 time for the GT3 may actually be somewhat conservative from what I've been hearing and reading. I think the likely ultimate time delta of 3-5 seconds between the two will be about right.
Sorry, can't exactly prove my point with math; just trying to be reasonable.
06-14-2013, 10:29 PM
#85
Drifting
If your math suggests that somehow PDK-S is masking a huge problem with the 991 GT3 chassis that is causing it to be only 2 seconds faster than a 4.0 when your model suggests it should be 40 seconds faster, I think there is a flaw in the model not in the chassis. I don't have a statistical way to prove that; it just seems like common sense.
I know what AP said about a 1/2 car length gain on every shift, but he may have been speaking more generally about ideal conditions. The reason for PDK's advantage is that acceleration is interrupted for less time during each shift than with a MT. The higher the rate of acceleration (in the lower gears for example) the bigger the advantage. A 4-5 or 5-6 shift, where the car's ROA is less won't result in a 1/2 car length advantage. (Someone help me out if I've go the physics of this wrong). Anyway, on a fast track like the Ring, with a lot of high speed shifts, I think assuming a 1/2 car length advantage with each of 50 shifts is overstating things.
I think it's also an overstatement to assume a .5 second advantage on every downshift, especially in the hands of the caliber of driver that's going to be able to run a mid 7:20's time in the first place.
The 4.0 is quite a bit lighter than the GT3, has more rear rubber, and more HP and torque. Also, the 7:25 time for the GT3 may actually be somewhat conservative from what I've been hearing and reading. I think the likely ultimate time delta of 3-5 seconds between the two will be about right.
Sorry, can't exactly prove my point with math; just trying to be reasonable.
I know what AP said about a 1/2 car length gain on every shift, but he may have been speaking more generally about ideal conditions. The reason for PDK's advantage is that acceleration is interrupted for less time during each shift than with a MT. The higher the rate of acceleration (in the lower gears for example) the bigger the advantage. A 4-5 or 5-6 shift, where the car's ROA is less won't result in a 1/2 car length advantage. (Someone help me out if I've go the physics of this wrong). Anyway, on a fast track like the Ring, with a lot of high speed shifts, I think assuming a 1/2 car length advantage with each of 50 shifts is overstating things.
I think it's also an overstatement to assume a .5 second advantage on every downshift, especially in the hands of the caliber of driver that's going to be able to run a mid 7:20's time in the first place.
The 4.0 is quite a bit lighter than the GT3, has more rear rubber, and more HP and torque. Also, the 7:25 time for the GT3 may actually be somewhat conservative from what I've been hearing and reading. I think the likely ultimate time delta of 3-5 seconds between the two will be about right.
Sorry, can't exactly prove my point with math; just trying to be reasonable.
I'll get with numbers in creating a model you guys can visualize, when i get sometime this weekend. Heading home, after being stuck in the office since 7.... but you posted false information. Both have the same width tires.
06-14-2013, 10:33 PM
#86
Drifting
The 991GT3 to RS4.0 comparison is going to be as fair as comparisons get unless someone grabs a drive train from a 4.0 and shoves it into a 991 chassis. The lap difference is f%@k all at 2sec between the them...
Why? They are both wide body, they both are about the 500hp mark (don't forget AP said 475 was very conservative suggesting closer to 500 for 991), the 4.0 has a weight saving which is offset by better tyre technology on the new car. This leaves 2 advances of the new car over old, the chassis and the gearbox! If the new chassis which gave the latest Carrera S a 10sec improvement in time and the new PDK which is good for 5sec in other models around the ring combined have yielded a 2sec advantage over a 6speed manually shifted, previous gen chassis car, then I'll take mine with the 4.0RS manual drivetrain thanks....
No use comparing the 991 car to its 997.2 predecessor. Wide body to narrow body, new chassis to old, 60-70hp difference... They are miles apart in specs and thus the lap difference...
As John pointed out, would luv to see what a 4.0RS drivetrain in the 991 chassis would have done around the NBR...
Why? They are both wide body, they both are about the 500hp mark (don't forget AP said 475 was very conservative suggesting closer to 500 for 991), the 4.0 has a weight saving which is offset by better tyre technology on the new car. This leaves 2 advances of the new car over old, the chassis and the gearbox! If the new chassis which gave the latest Carrera S a 10sec improvement in time and the new PDK which is good for 5sec in other models around the ring combined have yielded a 2sec advantage over a 6speed manually shifted, previous gen chassis car, then I'll take mine with the 4.0RS manual drivetrain thanks....
No use comparing the 991 car to its 997.2 predecessor. Wide body to narrow body, new chassis to old, 60-70hp difference... They are miles apart in specs and thus the lap difference...
As John pointed out, would luv to see what a 4.0RS drivetrain in the 991 chassis would have done around the NBR...
Yup. RS maybe ?
06-14-2013, 10:42 PM
#87
Race Director
I visualized your previous model just fine. No offense, but IMO you simply started with some incorrect assumptions.
06-14-2013, 11:24 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
F1, I think its important to point out that I don't believe there is something wrong with the new car or chassis that justifies the lack in improved time. I suppose an **** engined 500hp car can only be so fast around any given track...
What's disappointing is that we are being told by the Porsche marketing machine that these advances were necessary to make the gains achieved when obviously their older technology with the 6 speed stick can match it... They are using spin and excuses to justify altering their target market rather then catering for both the enthusiast and broadened market...
What's disappointing is that we are being told by the Porsche marketing machine that these advances were necessary to make the gains achieved when obviously their older technology with the 6 speed stick can match it... They are using spin and excuses to justify altering their target market rather then catering for both the enthusiast and broadened market...
06-14-2013, 11:38 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
^^ Yup, they want those 3 PDK-S buyers instead of the insane track abusers..
cant blame them, but we don't have to swallow their marketing spin.
Lighter is faster, good seats are faster, CS package is faster.
Than we can go look at RWS and PDK to go faster once that is all test and tried in racing.
They can easily get that done for the RS arrives. Delay it if they must..
cant blame them, but we don't have to swallow their marketing spin.
Lighter is faster, good seats are faster, CS package is faster.
Than we can go look at RWS and PDK to go faster once that is all test and tried in racing.
They can easily get that done for the RS arrives. Delay it if they must..