GT3 to CUP
04-07-2013, 01:36 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
GT3 to CUP
I thought I'd post my thoughts after having made the transition to a cup from a regular street legal GT3. It truly is a slippery slope and I hope this gives you the view from the bottom
I have a lot of track experience starting with racing in the 80's & 90's then founding and being the chief instructor for the BMW schools in Alberta for 15 years. I bought my first 6GT3 right after they appeared in 2004 and immediately took it to the track, it was fabulous and I was hooked (again). Fast forward a few years and a group of us are now travelling all around the US in a 5 car semi trailer going to DE days from VIR to Laguna Seca....we had a ton of fun and met all sorts of RL'ers. I found myself at Laguna Seca only a few seconds off the slower cup times but wearing shorts and a T-Shirt thinking "what's wrong with this picture?". You know better pal you'd better wake up and smell the coffee.
So I sold the GT3 and bought a 7GT3 that had been completely race prepared to the same level as a cup car and chose Miller Motorsport Park as my home track. (no tracks in Alberta where I live) I felt much better wrapped in a fire suit and a full cage and having a fire system and the rest of the safety gear. Driving the car wasn't a lot different than the street GT3.
I thought a modified street car would be less expensive than jumping right into a full cup car. In many ways it was as I could burn pump gas, the H pattern gearbox was familiar and indestructible, and I ran on used slicks that were pretty reasonable. I had intended to continue to do DE days but found the car to be a little intense for that so I stared racing in the local series at Miller. I did well but after a couple of years I became frustrated with the car. The ECU never did get used to the idea that it was in a race car. The PSM never did completely turn off and the dreaded "Ice Mode" was never far away. Very fast car though and a blast to drive...
I sold it and now have a 2010 3.8 cup. I liked the idea of getting one of the later cups as they have a lot more rubber, wider track, 3.8L engine and a lot more down force. The driving experience is simply fabulous and INTENSE! I get into a street GT3 now and they feel slow heavy and mushy...the cup is a scalpel.
So the differences:
#1 The dreaded sequential gearbox. I bought a low hour car but it had 24 hours on the gearbox so out it came for a refresh, $10k...ouch. Good thing there wasn't much wrong with it. Very easy to get used to though and the shifting is instant, which is good because you do a lot of it. In one corner sequence at Miller I do 5 shifts with the H pattern and 9 shifts in the cup. One of the most difficult things to get used to is the noise, you can barely hear the engine over the gear noise. Driving back from the impound area to the garage after a race with no helmet is painful...the gear noise is overwhelming. Fun to drive though and not at all difficult...some brain retraining required. The "blipper" really works...tough to stop heel & toeing though.
#2. Tires. I started out using used slicks at $300/set but after a year of this I decided to go new. There were too many handing issues that we couldn't sort out because we really didn't know if the problem was the chassis or tires with a mysterious past. So I've gotten into a cycle where I practice on Friday with an old set, use them for warm up and practice on Saturday, and then bolt on a new set for Saturday qualifying. New slicks are magic, the grip is phenomenal. We get the car to #1 on the grid with slightly high tire pressure and I get out first and lean on them right out of the gate. They are up to operating pressure after the one lap then I get one lap to qualify, they stick like glue...it's amazing. I then come in after lap 3 and lower the pressure and can go back out if my qualifying times isn't good enough...if not the tires are ready for the race. I then do the Saturday race, Sunday qualifying and the Sunday race on that set of tires. 4 heat cycles total then they become the "old" set for the next weekend. The last two sets I bought were Pirelli's @ $4600 inc shipping for the 2 sets...ouch again.
#3 engine. The engine is remarkably similar to the street engine, the cable throttle is different. The throttle response is far more sensitive, makes the car impossible to drive around the paddock in 1st gear due to all the jerking so it goes into 2nd almost immediately. The engine revs very easily and has a fairly flat torque curve with good power anywhere above 6k rpm. I plan to rebuild after next season with about 80 hours on the engine. Not as frequent as PMNA would like but I'm not in a professional series, I'm expecting $30k but then it's good for 3 or 4 seasons of club racing. Still a big ouch though...
#4 Brakes. I found the completely manual brakes surprisingly nice. I have locked up a couple of times but no serious flat spots yet thankfully. The bias is setup nicely and the feel is incredible. There is a far better connection between the driver and the brakes, I now have trouble going back to the regular mushy ABS brakes. I've considered adding the motorsports ABS to the car, it's about $6k so not too bad, so far no need though plus it's not allowed for PCA etc. Pads and rotors costs are similar to the later street cars..
#5. Fuel. 6MPG @ $10/gallon...ouch.
#6. Track support. I'm quite comfortable working on cars but keeping the car at a track far from home means I can't tinker. Plus I'm just not qualified to do a lot of the chassis tuning and mechanical work. I'm OK changing wheels and brake pads but that's about it. So it's about $300/day for track support and then a regular hourly rate for maintenance. Lots of preventative maintenance gets done like oil changes after every weekend and complete nut and bolt tightening. Then there is a recommended schedule for everything from wheel bearings to replacing the control arms. I'm OK with this and it's not unreasonable for cost and I definitely don't want anything important breaking at the speeds this thing goes. Race weekends are busy times and it's really good to have someone on the radio warning me if there's any drama happening somewhere on the track. It's deluxe to have someone else cleaning the car after every session and worrying about the mechanicals. The driving is tiring, it's good to be able to take a break between session and get properly hydrated and rested.
#7. Racing in general. This is club racing which is FAR from a professional series. I'm out on the track with guys/gals of similar in age and ability to myself and no one is interested in bending their cars. There are a few that take more chances than I will but I know who they are and they're welcome to go by. The competition is stiff but friendly, people make mistakes though and sh*t happens out there, but generally I feel as safe as I do during a DE. Probably more so due to the equipment and the skill level of the other drivers.
#8. Instrumentation. The Motec is far smarter than I am and I have a lot to learn. I don't look at the tach very often I rely completely on the light display. When the shift light turns to yellow I shift, sometimes earlier when still green, sometimes I hit the limiter... generally I shift early to conserve engine life the gearing is so tight it's always in the power band. The data the Motec gathers has everything, far more than I know how to analyse, I have a steep learning curve ahead of me to really get a handle on using the data effectively. Plus I get to overly data with some of the local pros so I can see where they are faster...way cool.
#9. The driving. It's thrilling. These are serious world class race cars designed and built by a company with 50 years of experience building race cars. They're a challenge to drive at the limit and the limits are high. But they're predictable and the handling is just a sharper version of the street GT3 handling. The cars are fully enclosed and very hot inside so I often run a cool suit. The combination of G forces, heat and the level of intensity and focus is a workout every time. It's far more intense than a DE day by far. I do the odd DE still and it's like a holiday in the sun in comparison...
Overall it's pretty thrilling and an experience second to none. I'm fortunate to have the opportunity to drive one of these things. I am not sure I want to keep at this level, it's a lot of work and expensive! But for now I'm enjoying the experience and glad that I made the jump to a cup...
Cheers,
Peter
I have a lot of track experience starting with racing in the 80's & 90's then founding and being the chief instructor for the BMW schools in Alberta for 15 years. I bought my first 6GT3 right after they appeared in 2004 and immediately took it to the track, it was fabulous and I was hooked (again). Fast forward a few years and a group of us are now travelling all around the US in a 5 car semi trailer going to DE days from VIR to Laguna Seca....we had a ton of fun and met all sorts of RL'ers. I found myself at Laguna Seca only a few seconds off the slower cup times but wearing shorts and a T-Shirt thinking "what's wrong with this picture?". You know better pal you'd better wake up and smell the coffee.
So I sold the GT3 and bought a 7GT3 that had been completely race prepared to the same level as a cup car and chose Miller Motorsport Park as my home track. (no tracks in Alberta where I live) I felt much better wrapped in a fire suit and a full cage and having a fire system and the rest of the safety gear. Driving the car wasn't a lot different than the street GT3.
I thought a modified street car would be less expensive than jumping right into a full cup car. In many ways it was as I could burn pump gas, the H pattern gearbox was familiar and indestructible, and I ran on used slicks that were pretty reasonable. I had intended to continue to do DE days but found the car to be a little intense for that so I stared racing in the local series at Miller. I did well but after a couple of years I became frustrated with the car. The ECU never did get used to the idea that it was in a race car. The PSM never did completely turn off and the dreaded "Ice Mode" was never far away. Very fast car though and a blast to drive...
I sold it and now have a 2010 3.8 cup. I liked the idea of getting one of the later cups as they have a lot more rubber, wider track, 3.8L engine and a lot more down force. The driving experience is simply fabulous and INTENSE! I get into a street GT3 now and they feel slow heavy and mushy...the cup is a scalpel.
So the differences:
#1 The dreaded sequential gearbox. I bought a low hour car but it had 24 hours on the gearbox so out it came for a refresh, $10k...ouch. Good thing there wasn't much wrong with it. Very easy to get used to though and the shifting is instant, which is good because you do a lot of it. In one corner sequence at Miller I do 5 shifts with the H pattern and 9 shifts in the cup. One of the most difficult things to get used to is the noise, you can barely hear the engine over the gear noise. Driving back from the impound area to the garage after a race with no helmet is painful...the gear noise is overwhelming. Fun to drive though and not at all difficult...some brain retraining required. The "blipper" really works...tough to stop heel & toeing though.
#2. Tires. I started out using used slicks at $300/set but after a year of this I decided to go new. There were too many handing issues that we couldn't sort out because we really didn't know if the problem was the chassis or tires with a mysterious past. So I've gotten into a cycle where I practice on Friday with an old set, use them for warm up and practice on Saturday, and then bolt on a new set for Saturday qualifying. New slicks are magic, the grip is phenomenal. We get the car to #1 on the grid with slightly high tire pressure and I get out first and lean on them right out of the gate. They are up to operating pressure after the one lap then I get one lap to qualify, they stick like glue...it's amazing. I then come in after lap 3 and lower the pressure and can go back out if my qualifying times isn't good enough...if not the tires are ready for the race. I then do the Saturday race, Sunday qualifying and the Sunday race on that set of tires. 4 heat cycles total then they become the "old" set for the next weekend. The last two sets I bought were Pirelli's @ $4600 inc shipping for the 2 sets...ouch again.
#3 engine. The engine is remarkably similar to the street engine, the cable throttle is different. The throttle response is far more sensitive, makes the car impossible to drive around the paddock in 1st gear due to all the jerking so it goes into 2nd almost immediately. The engine revs very easily and has a fairly flat torque curve with good power anywhere above 6k rpm. I plan to rebuild after next season with about 80 hours on the engine. Not as frequent as PMNA would like but I'm not in a professional series, I'm expecting $30k but then it's good for 3 or 4 seasons of club racing. Still a big ouch though...
#4 Brakes. I found the completely manual brakes surprisingly nice. I have locked up a couple of times but no serious flat spots yet thankfully. The bias is setup nicely and the feel is incredible. There is a far better connection between the driver and the brakes, I now have trouble going back to the regular mushy ABS brakes. I've considered adding the motorsports ABS to the car, it's about $6k so not too bad, so far no need though plus it's not allowed for PCA etc. Pads and rotors costs are similar to the later street cars..
#5. Fuel. 6MPG @ $10/gallon...ouch.
#6. Track support. I'm quite comfortable working on cars but keeping the car at a track far from home means I can't tinker. Plus I'm just not qualified to do a lot of the chassis tuning and mechanical work. I'm OK changing wheels and brake pads but that's about it. So it's about $300/day for track support and then a regular hourly rate for maintenance. Lots of preventative maintenance gets done like oil changes after every weekend and complete nut and bolt tightening. Then there is a recommended schedule for everything from wheel bearings to replacing the control arms. I'm OK with this and it's not unreasonable for cost and I definitely don't want anything important breaking at the speeds this thing goes. Race weekends are busy times and it's really good to have someone on the radio warning me if there's any drama happening somewhere on the track. It's deluxe to have someone else cleaning the car after every session and worrying about the mechanicals. The driving is tiring, it's good to be able to take a break between session and get properly hydrated and rested.
#7. Racing in general. This is club racing which is FAR from a professional series. I'm out on the track with guys/gals of similar in age and ability to myself and no one is interested in bending their cars. There are a few that take more chances than I will but I know who they are and they're welcome to go by. The competition is stiff but friendly, people make mistakes though and sh*t happens out there, but generally I feel as safe as I do during a DE. Probably more so due to the equipment and the skill level of the other drivers.
#8. Instrumentation. The Motec is far smarter than I am and I have a lot to learn. I don't look at the tach very often I rely completely on the light display. When the shift light turns to yellow I shift, sometimes earlier when still green, sometimes I hit the limiter... generally I shift early to conserve engine life the gearing is so tight it's always in the power band. The data the Motec gathers has everything, far more than I know how to analyse, I have a steep learning curve ahead of me to really get a handle on using the data effectively. Plus I get to overly data with some of the local pros so I can see where they are faster...way cool.
#9. The driving. It's thrilling. These are serious world class race cars designed and built by a company with 50 years of experience building race cars. They're a challenge to drive at the limit and the limits are high. But they're predictable and the handling is just a sharper version of the street GT3 handling. The cars are fully enclosed and very hot inside so I often run a cool suit. The combination of G forces, heat and the level of intensity and focus is a workout every time. It's far more intense than a DE day by far. I do the odd DE still and it's like a holiday in the sun in comparison...
Overall it's pretty thrilling and an experience second to none. I'm fortunate to have the opportunity to drive one of these things. I am not sure I want to keep at this level, it's a lot of work and expensive! But for now I'm enjoying the experience and glad that I made the jump to a cup...
Cheers,
Peter
04-07-2013, 02:23 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
04-07-2013, 02:35 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
04-07-2013, 02:49 PM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Great review Peter and I am there swimming in the bottom of the steep curve. After modding my street RS to death and driving around in T shirt and jeans in a fully caged car I too had the realization something is very wrong with the picture. It has been over two years since I got my Cup and every drive is full of excitement and very tiring since I am my own pit crew. When the car is just sitting around during off season I get that funny feeling if I should sell it. Once I get back in and drive then I could never imagine without it. Like you said, there is no experience like driving a Cup car. It is pure adrenaline without ANY fat. It's not for everyone and not even some of the most hard cord DE junky. After two years I am done with scrubs (BTW, thanks for donating some of your used slicks). Will start using new slicks and will give Toyo slicks a try since they are about $1K less than Michelin.
Here is a nice clips of those that can afford $250K for one race season. Spare Cup car don't count into that figure
Here is a nice clips of those that can afford $250K for one race season. Spare Cup car don't count into that figure
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04-07-2013, 03:01 PM
#9
Peter, your car looked great out there last weekend. It's got to be fun to have John Potter out there to chase around as well. I have had a lot going on with business was unable to get the race car ready so I didn't run, it's hard to watch and not race.
All your points made are the same ones I considered When I was thinking cup car, rebuild cost, gas ect. (nice write up BTW) and staying with the Z06 as a race car made sense for me right now. Aaron Pfadt is going to help me to continue to develop the car and is going to race it few times, to help me get it ready for the NASA nationals.
How did you like all the dirt piles on the east side?
Cheers Park
All your points made are the same ones I considered When I was thinking cup car, rebuild cost, gas ect. (nice write up BTW) and staying with the Z06 as a race car made sense for me right now. Aaron Pfadt is going to help me to continue to develop the car and is going to race it few times, to help me get it ready for the NASA nationals.
How did you like all the dirt piles on the east side?
Cheers Park
04-07-2013, 03:18 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Park, my first time out on the "Outer Loop" configuration last weekend and the new barriers up on the outside of Witchcraft are not welcome at all. Beats flying off into the new 25' hole on the other side where they dug up the dirt for the motocross track, but way too close for comfort. Data shows me through there at 165 kph...yikes!
Potter was 6 seconds a lap faster in his Daytona car, I was kidding him afterwards that he must have broken and pulled in because after the first lap I didn't see him any more
Your Corvette will be awesome stay with it.....cups are gorgeous but I think "Porsche" in German means money...
Potter was 6 seconds a lap faster in his Daytona car, I was kidding him afterwards that he must have broken and pulled in because after the first lap I didn't see him any more
Your Corvette will be awesome stay with it.....cups are gorgeous but I think "Porsche" in German means money...
04-07-2013, 03:27 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Great review Peter and I am there swimming in the bottom of the steep curve. After modding my street RS to death and driving around in T shirt and jeans in a fully caged car I too had the realization something is very wrong with the picture. It has been over two years since I got my Cup and every drive is full of excitement and very tiring since I am my own pit crew. When the car is just sitting around during off season I get that funny feeling if I should sell it. Once I get back in and drive then I could never imagine without it. Like you said, there is no experience like driving a Cup car. It is pure adrenaline without ANY fat. It's not for everyone and not even some of the most hard cord DE junky. After two years I am done with scrubs (BTW, thanks for donating some of your used slicks). Will start using new slicks and will give Toyo slicks a try since they are about $1K less than Michelin.
Here is a nice clips of those that can afford $250K for one race season. Spare Cup car don't count into that figure
Here is a nice clips of those that can afford $250K for one race season. Spare Cup car don't count into that figure
I'm stuck with Pirelli or Michelin as Yokohama doesn't make the right size for the 10+ cups. I like Pirelli but a quick calculation shows $500/hour just for ties...sucks.
Thanks for posting the videos it's always fun to see the big guys out playing...
04-07-2013, 04:07 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Great write-up, my friend...
04-07-2013, 04:07 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Fantastic post!
It's on everyone's mind once in a while to try racing :-)
Not much new to me here, but maybe I can add that most other race cars aren't much cheaper if you want to win besides the sequential gearbox.
Maybe tires are slightly less and rebuilds are less but the transport, track support and racing gas is the same for all.
Racing is just very, very expensive compared to DE factoring in more likely race damage and no warranty benefits.
As a plus side the right racecars suffer very little or no depreciation.
Thank you for posting!
It's on everyone's mind once in a while to try racing :-)
Not much new to me here, but maybe I can add that most other race cars aren't much cheaper if you want to win besides the sequential gearbox.
Maybe tires are slightly less and rebuilds are less but the transport, track support and racing gas is the same for all.
Racing is just very, very expensive compared to DE factoring in more likely race damage and no warranty benefits.
As a plus side the right racecars suffer very little or no depreciation.
Thank you for posting!