GT3's Are Bargains
01-22-2013, 02:05 PM
#91
Drifting
I drove a 991S on Sebring. Was fast as hell. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it's a better car than the .2 997's for sure. I'd say with the proper tires it would keep up with my .1 GT3.
Sign me up for a used 991 GT3 PDK at a significant discount in about 3-4 years
Sign me up for a used 991 GT3 PDK at a significant discount in about 3-4 years
We'll agree to disagree. Same thing happens with every new model. Hence the reason you can get a 996 GT3 for 45k now.
I think we tend to think of all GT3 owners as being like minded because of the microcosm on RL where everyone is a track star.
Go to the cars and coffee meets. Tons of show and shine GT3's that have never seen an autorcross let alone a track. Those guys will dump their cars as fast as Izzone drinks beers to get the latest greatest.
I think we tend to think of all GT3 owners as being like minded because of the microcosm on RL where everyone is a track star.
Go to the cars and coffee meets. Tons of show and shine GT3's that have never seen an autorcross let alone a track. Those guys will dump their cars as fast as Izzone drinks beers to get the latest greatest.
I agree. Cars and Coffee guys will move to the new platform. Track guys will move too if the car is faster. 3.8l, 500bhp, and 7 speed PDK with a couple hundred less pounds of weight... Trakcar will be the first in line.
That's when I'll pick up a lightly used 3.8 RS for under $100K. Say 2015 or thereabouts.
That's when I'll pick up a lightly used 3.8 RS for under $100K. Say 2015 or thereabouts.
The rennlist crowd is not representative of the typical Porsche buyer, even for the niche GT3 (RS). There might be, what, a few hundred cars at most that are represented by active forum users?
Some people are loyal to Porsche to the end and some people are considering other options (C7, Viper, Cup Car - different market, no advertising for them on the street, not sold as an aspirational consumer item, but rather a tool).
There are legions of other people who own a GT3 (RS), but don't know how fast it might go around Sebring or VIR or Road Atlanta, or what tires they should be running, or how Porsche did in Grand-Am and the ALMS last year. They do, however, enjoy the status of pulling up to their local weekend car meet in a GT3 (RS), and then strolling around with their bored wife while sipping a latte and fielding admiring inquiries from gushing onlookers. One day soon, they'll be hanging out at the Porsche dealer on a Saturday - maybe buying their high-schooler a used Boxster or getting tires for the family car Cayenne - and a salesman with lust in his eyes will aproach this GT3 owner and ask him whether he's seen the "all-new GT3." After rattling off the brochure, the salesman will invite him inside the showroom to check out the only GT3 that they have in. His new friend can, of course, order one for him. A few months later, the old GT3 (RS), which never saw the track, the redline, or the rain, makes way for the new 991 GT3 (with 9A1 and PDK), which is faster, easier to drive, and much cheaper for Porsche to make.
When Mr. GT3 owner raves to his dealer about the new car, Porsche's decision to kill the GT3 off and put in PDK and a cheap engine that has never won a significant race - let alone a notable 24 Hour Endurance race that places severe loads on the engine - will look pretty clever. Their new owners will love it!
01-22-2013, 02:06 PM
#92
Burning Brakes
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Clean no damage cars the last 24 months:
04-05 996 GT3 stuck at 45-50K
07-08 997.1 GT3 stuck at 70-80K
07-08 997.1 RS stuck at 85-100K
10-11 997.2 GT3 holding at 95-100K
10-11997.2 RS holding at 115 - 135K and been going up with very limited supply.
With the 996 Gt3 and 997 stuck, there is no room to go down for the models above, except the 2011 4.0 and it has been going up the most...
The 2014 991 GT3 is $150 real money the 2015RS 175 real money.. Unproven might be straying form the concept might make the 997's go up. Or it might be fantastic and the 997's wont go up too much. TRAKCAR will be watching till say 2017 to see how all this new stuff holds up against the competition.
So lots of room to go up, no room to go down.
08-09 GT2's been going up, 2011 GT2RS are not coming down and we are in the off season...
Unless the demand in GT3's goes away for track junies there will be no change.
04-05 996 GT3 stuck at 45-50K
07-08 997.1 GT3 stuck at 70-80K
07-08 997.1 RS stuck at 85-100K
10-11 997.2 GT3 holding at 95-100K
10-11997.2 RS holding at 115 - 135K and been going up with very limited supply.
With the 996 Gt3 and 997 stuck, there is no room to go down for the models above, except the 2011 4.0 and it has been going up the most...
The 2014 991 GT3 is $150 real money the 2015RS 175 real money.. Unproven might be straying form the concept might make the 997's go up. Or it might be fantastic and the 997's wont go up too much. TRAKCAR will be watching till say 2017 to see how all this new stuff holds up against the competition.
So lots of room to go up, no room to go down.
08-09 GT2's been going up, 2011 GT2RS are not coming down and we are in the off season...
Unless the demand in GT3's goes away for track junies there will be no change.
Couldnt agree more..people also forget that the new GT3 will be considerably more expensive...this is good for any 997 GT3 owner. The new one will be close be around 140..with some options youll be close to 150..so a simple second hand 3.8 for 95K will still be 50K cheaper..!!
Besides, I bet you all here, that in 5-6 years the 997.2 GT3 will be worth more then a second hand 991 GT3 by then..also because it will likely have a different engine for the 991.2 GT3..
The new 991RS will be close to 180 --dont forgot that..there wont be so many cars of coffe guys that are willing to upgrade then..unless Porsche throws the new ones on the market with 15% discount..
01-22-2013, 02:09 PM
#93
Rennlist Member
Many .1 GT3s sell in the 70s and RSs in the 90s. It's possible that the same will happen to the .2 in 3 years. .2 GT3s can already been had in the 90s and I've seen .2 RSs listed in the 110s.
Just stating facts, not speculating. Time will tell.
Just stating facts, not speculating. Time will tell.
01-22-2013, 02:17 PM
#94
Nordschleife Master
It will all depend on the specifics of the 991 GT3. Will it be just a tarted-up C2S (I like the Carrera GTS anaolgy) or something really special? Sure it will be faster. But faster doesn't always mean better - or else we would all have a GT-R.
I predict the 997.2 GT3 and GT3RS will become even more scarce and desirable.
But who knows.
And, from what I've seen, the 997.2 Turbo S with the non-Mezger engine isn't exactly a big hit. If the 991 GT3 uses the same engine as the basic C2S will it suffer the same fate?
I predict the 997.2 GT3 and GT3RS will become even more scarce and desirable.
But who knows.
And, from what I've seen, the 997.2 Turbo S with the non-Mezger engine isn't exactly a big hit. If the 991 GT3 uses the same engine as the basic C2S will it suffer the same fate?
01-22-2013, 02:18 PM
#95
Three Wheelin'
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997 GT2 did not go up in value after the GT2 RS came out, in fact the opposite happened, to my benefit.
There will be a window of opportunity when the GT3 RS will be quite low in value- probably within the 6-12 months after the 991 GT3 RS starts shipping and trade ins languish on dealer lots unsold.
There will be a window of opportunity when the GT3 RS will be quite low in value- probably within the 6-12 months after the 991 GT3 RS starts shipping and trade ins languish on dealer lots unsold.
01-22-2013, 02:19 PM
#96
Burning Brakes
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Dog is right.
The rennlist crowd is not representative of the typical Porsche buyer, even for the niche GT3 (RS). There might be, what, a few hundred cars at most that are represented by active forum users?
Some people are loyal to Porsche to the end and some people are considering other options (C7, Viper, Cup Car - different market, no advertising for them on the street, not sold as an aspirational consumer item, but rather a tool).
There are legions of other people who own a GT3 (RS), but don't know how fast it might go around Sebring or VIR or Road Atlanta, or what tires they should be running, or how Porsche did in Grand-Am and the ALMS last year. They do, however, enjoy the status of pulling up to their local weekend car meet in a GT3 (RS), and then strolling around with their bored wife while sipping a latte and fielding admiring inquiries from gushing onlookers. One day soon, they'll be hanging out at the Porsche dealer on a Saturday - maybe buying their high-schooler a used Boxster or getting tires for the family car Cayenne - and a salesman with lust in his eyes will aproach this GT3 owner and ask him whether he's seen the "all-new GT3." After rattling off the brochure, the salesman will invite him inside the showroom to check out the only GT3 that they have in. His new friend can, of course, order one for him. A few months later, the old GT3 (RS), which never saw the track, the redline, or the rain, makes way for the new 991 GT3 (with 9A1 and PDK), which is faster, easier to drive, and much cheaper for Porsche to make.
When Mr. GT3 owner raves to his dealer about the new car, Porsche's decision to kill the GT3 off and put in PDK and a cheap engine that has never won a significant race - let alone a notable 24 Hour Endurance race that places severe loads on the engine - will look pretty clever. Their new owners will love it!
The rennlist crowd is not representative of the typical Porsche buyer, even for the niche GT3 (RS). There might be, what, a few hundred cars at most that are represented by active forum users?
Some people are loyal to Porsche to the end and some people are considering other options (C7, Viper, Cup Car - different market, no advertising for them on the street, not sold as an aspirational consumer item, but rather a tool).
There are legions of other people who own a GT3 (RS), but don't know how fast it might go around Sebring or VIR or Road Atlanta, or what tires they should be running, or how Porsche did in Grand-Am and the ALMS last year. They do, however, enjoy the status of pulling up to their local weekend car meet in a GT3 (RS), and then strolling around with their bored wife while sipping a latte and fielding admiring inquiries from gushing onlookers. One day soon, they'll be hanging out at the Porsche dealer on a Saturday - maybe buying their high-schooler a used Boxster or getting tires for the family car Cayenne - and a salesman with lust in his eyes will aproach this GT3 owner and ask him whether he's seen the "all-new GT3." After rattling off the brochure, the salesman will invite him inside the showroom to check out the only GT3 that they have in. His new friend can, of course, order one for him. A few months later, the old GT3 (RS), which never saw the track, the redline, or the rain, makes way for the new 991 GT3 (with 9A1 and PDK), which is faster, easier to drive, and much cheaper for Porsche to make.
When Mr. GT3 owner raves to his dealer about the new car, Porsche's decision to kill the GT3 off and put in PDK and a cheap engine that has never won a significant race - let alone a notable 24 Hour Endurance race that places severe loads on the engine - will look pretty clever. Their new owners will love it!
well, i dont know if dog is so right..its certainly true for a large extend of the 997 or 991 standard car owners..but GT3 owners are a special breed. Every Porsche sales man knows that..those are people who still are quite much interested in racing etc., mechanical things etc. GT3 owners are not owners who need to follow the latest fashion or whatever..those "flashy people" wouldnt buy the GT3 anyway, too hard, big ugly wing etc. Almost no one would have a GT3 to show off....those people would rather buy a cayenne, panamera or 991.
Internal Porsche strategy is very clear, GT3 owners are the best and most loyal owners they have..because many of them track - and generate additional cash flow for Porsche by buying parts again that get used on track like tires, brakes etc. Dont forget that many Porsche dealers are offering track very profitable support etc..Also, usually they dont lament about a spark plug costing 10$ or 15$..but believe me, I have seen cayenne, and panamera or normal 911 owners who were complaining about Porsche service prices.."why does the tire cost here 10% more..etc"..
Porsche jst has to be careful not to mess up with these GT3 customers..but Im afriad they are doing so. Every university freshman learns one the first basics of Marketing: " any customer that you loose to another brand..will be vey costly to get back in the future".
Well see..
01-22-2013, 02:27 PM
#97
Burning Brakes
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..I have a very simple rule for future car valueing - the more electronics a car has..the more it will drop in value. When I look at C-GT vs 959 - my theory proved to right..
anybody has any counter examples..?
PS: I bet the 918 can be had 1-2 years after is production for half money....and C-GT prices will go to the sky in 10 years..just because people will then want to drive a "real-non-hybrid car"..with a feeling of pure sensation. Even if one liter gas would cost 10$ by then..for those rich people it wouldnt matter..as long as the car provides the thrill..and a C-GT provides more thrill than a 2.7RS..-even a 997.2GT3RS provides more thrill..for much less money.
01-22-2013, 02:31 PM
#98
Drifting
There are some true diehards left, and these absolutists cut things off - variously - at the end of the 356, the end of the long hood cars, the end of the Carrera 3.2, the end of the upright headlights witht the 964, the end of air-cooling with the 993, etc. There will be some 997 GT3 guys who will go no farther, and never even consider a 991 GT3. But a lot of them will change their mind.
You could buy a nice 993 and drive it every day (as I have) and sell it for what you have in it, more or less. Mine is worth about half of its original MSRP, and it has 98k miles (no rebuild). It remains to be seen whether the 997 GT3 variants see the same trends.
01-22-2013, 02:34 PM
#99
Drifting
Hi guest,
well, i dont know if dog is so right..its certainly true for a large extend of the 997 or 991 standard car owners..but GT3 owners are a special breed. Every Porsche sales man knows that..those are people who still are quite much interested in racing etc., mechanical things etc. GT3 owners are not owners who need to follow the latest fashion or whatever..those "flashy people" wouldnt buy the GT3 anyway, too hard, big ugly wing etc. Almost no one would have a GT3 to show off....those people would rather buy a cayenne, panamera or 991.
Internal Porsche strategy is very clear, GT3 owners are the best and most loyal owners they have..because many of them track - and generate additional cash flow for Porsche by buying parts again that get used on track like tires, brakes etc. Dont forget that many Porsche dealers are offering track very profitable support etc..Also, usually they dont lament about a spark plug costing 10$ or 15$..but believe me, I have seen cayenne, and panamera or normal 911 owners who were complaining about Porsche service prices.."why does the tire cost here 10% more..etc"..
Porsche jst has to be careful not to mess up with these GT3 customers..but Im afriad they are doing so. Every university freshman learns one the first basics of Marketing: " any customer that you loose to another brand..will be vey costly to get back in the future".
Well see..
well, i dont know if dog is so right..its certainly true for a large extend of the 997 or 991 standard car owners..but GT3 owners are a special breed. Every Porsche sales man knows that..those are people who still are quite much interested in racing etc., mechanical things etc. GT3 owners are not owners who need to follow the latest fashion or whatever..those "flashy people" wouldnt buy the GT3 anyway, too hard, big ugly wing etc. Almost no one would have a GT3 to show off....those people would rather buy a cayenne, panamera or 991.
Internal Porsche strategy is very clear, GT3 owners are the best and most loyal owners they have..because many of them track - and generate additional cash flow for Porsche by buying parts again that get used on track like tires, brakes etc. Dont forget that many Porsche dealers are offering track very profitable support etc..Also, usually they dont lament about a spark plug costing 10$ or 15$..but believe me, I have seen cayenne, and panamera or normal 911 owners who were complaining about Porsche service prices.."why does the tire cost here 10% more..etc"..
Porsche jst has to be careful not to mess up with these GT3 customers..but Im afriad they are doing so. Every university freshman learns one the first basics of Marketing: " any customer that you loose to another brand..will be vey costly to get back in the future".
Well see..
Exactly....
I have a very simple rule for future car valueing - the more electronics a car has..the more it will drop in value. When I look at C-GT vs 959 - my theory proved to right..
anybody has any counter examples..?
PS: I bet the 918 can be had 1-2 years after is production for half money....and C-GT prices will go to the sky in 10 years..just because people will then want to drive a "real-non-hybrid car"..with a feeling of pure sensation. Even if one liter gas would cost 10$ by then..for those rich people it wouldnt matter..as long as the car provides the thrill..and a C-GT provides more thrill than a 2.7RS..-even a 997.2GT3RS provides more thrill..for much less money.
..I have a very simple rule for future car valueing - the more electronics a car has..the more it will drop in value. When I look at C-GT vs 959 - my theory proved to right..
anybody has any counter examples..?
PS: I bet the 918 can be had 1-2 years after is production for half money....and C-GT prices will go to the sky in 10 years..just because people will then want to drive a "real-non-hybrid car"..with a feeling of pure sensation. Even if one liter gas would cost 10$ by then..for those rich people it wouldnt matter..as long as the car provides the thrill..and a C-GT provides more thrill than a 2.7RS..-even a 997.2GT3RS provides more thrill..for much less money.
The GT3 customer isn't as well defined in the US as in Europe; the appreciation for sports car racing isnt' as high, and the general public doesn't share those same values.
I do agree about computers and complexity and value, but probably at least as much because less computers means less likely to become technologically obsolete/defunct.
01-22-2013, 02:40 PM
#100
Rennlist Member
In addition to all the above, let me add that It could very well be that the .2RS is the last and best track car for the money. Time will tell.
I say there are more purist and DE drivers that are aching to move up to a GT3 then there are sub 100K GT3 cars the next couple of years..
I say there are more purist and DE drivers that are aching to move up to a GT3 then there are sub 100K GT3 cars the next couple of years..
01-22-2013, 02:48 PM
#101
Rennlist Member
Just wasted 10 minutes reading this thread.
With any car depreciation thread, everyone's opinion is right as nobody will know what's in the future. So keep writing.
I don't care how much faster or expensive the next GT3/RS. I cannot extract 100% from my RS now. Anything faster to me is irrelevant. I don't plan on selling it so the depreciation of it is also irrelevant to me.
Damn, wasted another 5 minutes typing this irrelevant thread.
With any car depreciation thread, everyone's opinion is right as nobody will know what's in the future. So keep writing.
I don't care how much faster or expensive the next GT3/RS. I cannot extract 100% from my RS now. Anything faster to me is irrelevant. I don't plan on selling it so the depreciation of it is also irrelevant to me.
Damn, wasted another 5 minutes typing this irrelevant thread.
01-22-2013, 02:58 PM
#102
Rennlist Member
In addition to all the above, let me add that It could very well be that the 6GT3 is the last and best track car for the money. Time will tell.
I say there are more purist and DE drivers that are aching to move up to a GT3 then there are sub 100K GT3 cars the next couple of years..
I say there are more purist and DE drivers that are aching to move up to a GT3 then there are sub 100K GT3 cars the next couple of years..
Peter
01-22-2013, 03:27 PM
#104
Drifting
In addition to all the above, let me add that It could very well be that the .2RS is the last and best track car for the money. Time will tell.
I say there are more purist and DE drivers that are aching to move up to a GT3 then there are sub 100K GT3 cars the next couple of years..
I say there are more purist and DE drivers that are aching to move up to a GT3 then there are sub 100K GT3 cars the next couple of years..
Just wasted 10 minutes reading this thread.
With any car depreciation thread, everyone's opinion is right as nobody will know what's in the future. So keep writing.
I don't care how much faster or expensive the next GT3/RS. I cannot extract 100% from my RS now. Anything faster to me is irrelevant. I don't plan on selling it so the depreciation of it is also irrelevant to me.
Damn, wasted another 5 minutes typing this irrelevant thread.
With any car depreciation thread, everyone's opinion is right as nobody will know what's in the future. So keep writing.
I don't care how much faster or expensive the next GT3/RS. I cannot extract 100% from my RS now. Anything faster to me is irrelevant. I don't plan on selling it so the depreciation of it is also irrelevant to me.
Damn, wasted another 5 minutes typing this irrelevant thread.