Winterfest PBOC Sebring 2013
11-06-2012, 10:04 AM
#166
Rennlist Member
I don't see any 450 hp spec classes. Classes that run on R888's are miata's and spec 944's or something with 200 hp. And this is not about ability to stay in slip angle, it's likelyhood. Unlikely in bumper to bumper pack driving.
Even still a guy who's never been racing before will miss apex after apex overdriving to stay in front as we've seen from DE Cup.
In TT if you blow a couple of turns, you know the lap is screwed already and will likely back off. In racing you know that is not helping you stay ahead so you fix it (or get passed). Racers are experienced driving in packs properly. DE cup has varying levels of skill many of which driving out of their skill set determined to stay in front.
Even still a guy who's never been racing before will miss apex after apex overdriving to stay in front as we've seen from DE Cup.
In TT if you blow a couple of turns, you know the lap is screwed already and will likely back off. In racing you know that is not helping you stay ahead so you fix it (or get passed). Racers are experienced driving in packs properly. DE cup has varying levels of skill many of which driving out of their skill set determined to stay in front.
I am also running Solo at Winterfest as I have no desire to go faux racing that is called Super Solo.
Peter
11-06-2012, 10:22 AM
#167
Nordschleife Master
11-06-2012, 10:24 AM
#168
Rennlist Member
A bunch of guys on A6's driving for 3-5 minutes a session looking for hero laps isn't my idea of fun.
IMO, it's more enjoyable driving for longer sessions, trying to be smooth regardless of what the car and track give you.
IMO, it's more enjoyable driving for longer sessions, trying to be smooth regardless of what the car and track give you.
11-06-2012, 10:27 AM
#169
+ 1k I have found NASA TT some of the safest track time out there. We are gridded by lap times and usually have 3 to 5 clean laps in FL NASA. I have also found that my fast lap is #2 or 3 then I fall off and come in. That doesn't mean people don't drive over their heads it does mean they mostly screw up themselves as they are not surrounded by other cars.
I am also running Solo at Winterfest as I have no desire to go faux racing that is called Super Solo.
Peter
I am also running Solo at Winterfest as I have no desire to go faux racing that is called Super Solo.
Peter
11-06-2012, 10:53 AM
#170
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I'll call my insurance for sure.
Maybe I'll sign up for TTZ with my Dually.
Even if I can talk them into amending my policy I predict the end of Super Solo unless they scrap this TT crap now.
It's been tried and did not work and puzzling to me why you would mess with something so good and popular.
Note that any driver with a current race license is not allowed in Supersolo. The reason is that race passing and SS passing rules are completely different and unique to SS.
Why compete with TT groups that are not exactly booming with entries either?
Narra TT and nasa TT are doing a pretty good job of running TT in small! groups, they send out faster cars first, followed by slower cars in order of quali lap times, so until they start lapping each other there is no traffic and combined with small groups and that the typical TT driver only running a few flyer laps for the best ulitimate time they made it work.
I've driven nasaTT where at trackout they waved a sign saying "Drive harder pussies" They "best" drivers were encouranging very racey and rough driving. They were in full blown race cars and raced competetively. I really felt out of place.
Supersolo drivers are not going there as they prefer SS rules and run entire sessions at pace, just working on their driving ability.
When they mixed Narra TT with Supersolo it was a disaster because a TT driver will not give up a flyer lap and either hold up a train of SS guys or take a pass without respecting the 50-50 cornering rule because it will destroy their lap. SuperSolo drivers will line up and drive on the track whenever, so always in the way of a TT driver both slower and faster..
I really dont need to go side by side with a $500.00 TTF car that is going for the win with a person driving that we have no idea what kind of car control or traffic awareness they might or might not have.
I dont need to sit behind a Corvette that is warming his tires but blocks you because he does not want to be held up on his next flyer lap.
In Supersolo there should be nothing to win and we should not be on the track with cars that are racing for the win. This will not work for TT guys either because the SS group is way to large for clean track.
I personally just want to have the best chance at a clean lap, with people I am comfortable with driving door to door through a turn. My goal and hobby is to improve my driving (using laptimes a a measuring point against myself, not as a scoring measure against others) with the least amount of risk.
Its called Driving Education.
Some SS drovers came up with their own scoring and classification system and guess what they are used to running and winning TT. Still the laptimes are individually shown as an option and it is more an elbow ribbing joke than it is a scoring system. Cars run whatever they bring and there is no classification.
There are lots of respected slow SS drivers that are extremely safe to pass anywhere at any speed.
The reason that the group can be so large is that there are no point by's and there is great flow around the track, albeit with loss of laptime for passing and being passed cars. No trains.
SuperSolo is kinda by invitation only, self policing group that only works because of the camaraderie and awareness amongs ourself of all drivers and their ability in terms of car control and traffic awareness.
If a few members decide someone is not safe to be around, can show what happened and others agree that it is posing an uneeded risk, he gets uninvited.
They usually know who they are and they will either get the hint and back it up before the offical vote or they don't and they can go back to Solo or TT until they get re-invited with provisional sessions sporting big X on the car, just like other new provisionals.
Because we have been pretty strict this no point by group has worked very well when everyone said it could not be done. Maybe the naysayers will be proven right after all.
The rules and philosophy clash between TT and SS and I fear the change will kill my beloved SS group.
If my insurance covers me I will try it out, but I see myself going in solo :-(
Maybe I'll sign up for TTZ with my Dually.
Even if I can talk them into amending my policy I predict the end of Super Solo unless they scrap this TT crap now.
It's been tried and did not work and puzzling to me why you would mess with something so good and popular.
Note that any driver with a current race license is not allowed in Supersolo. The reason is that race passing and SS passing rules are completely different and unique to SS.
Why compete with TT groups that are not exactly booming with entries either?
Narra TT and nasa TT are doing a pretty good job of running TT in small! groups, they send out faster cars first, followed by slower cars in order of quali lap times, so until they start lapping each other there is no traffic and combined with small groups and that the typical TT driver only running a few flyer laps for the best ulitimate time they made it work.
I've driven nasaTT where at trackout they waved a sign saying "Drive harder pussies" They "best" drivers were encouranging very racey and rough driving. They were in full blown race cars and raced competetively. I really felt out of place.
Supersolo drivers are not going there as they prefer SS rules and run entire sessions at pace, just working on their driving ability.
When they mixed Narra TT with Supersolo it was a disaster because a TT driver will not give up a flyer lap and either hold up a train of SS guys or take a pass without respecting the 50-50 cornering rule because it will destroy their lap. SuperSolo drivers will line up and drive on the track whenever, so always in the way of a TT driver both slower and faster..
I really dont need to go side by side with a $500.00 TTF car that is going for the win with a person driving that we have no idea what kind of car control or traffic awareness they might or might not have.
I dont need to sit behind a Corvette that is warming his tires but blocks you because he does not want to be held up on his next flyer lap.
In Supersolo there should be nothing to win and we should not be on the track with cars that are racing for the win. This will not work for TT guys either because the SS group is way to large for clean track.
I personally just want to have the best chance at a clean lap, with people I am comfortable with driving door to door through a turn. My goal and hobby is to improve my driving (using laptimes a a measuring point against myself, not as a scoring measure against others) with the least amount of risk.
Its called Driving Education.
Some SS drovers came up with their own scoring and classification system and guess what they are used to running and winning TT. Still the laptimes are individually shown as an option and it is more an elbow ribbing joke than it is a scoring system. Cars run whatever they bring and there is no classification.
There are lots of respected slow SS drivers that are extremely safe to pass anywhere at any speed.
The reason that the group can be so large is that there are no point by's and there is great flow around the track, albeit with loss of laptime for passing and being passed cars. No trains.
SuperSolo is kinda by invitation only, self policing group that only works because of the camaraderie and awareness amongs ourself of all drivers and their ability in terms of car control and traffic awareness.
If a few members decide someone is not safe to be around, can show what happened and others agree that it is posing an uneeded risk, he gets uninvited.
They usually know who they are and they will either get the hint and back it up before the offical vote or they don't and they can go back to Solo or TT until they get re-invited with provisional sessions sporting big X on the car, just like other new provisionals.
Because we have been pretty strict this no point by group has worked very well when everyone said it could not be done. Maybe the naysayers will be proven right after all.
The rules and philosophy clash between TT and SS and I fear the change will kill my beloved SS group.
If my insurance covers me I will try it out, but I see myself going in solo :-(
11-06-2012, 12:08 PM
#172
Rennlist Member
Peter
Long winded post
but I get your point. I know when we ran NASA HPDE4 and TT in the same group it didn't work for either party. I like both concepts ie TT for the competition factor in the Ring Warrior and I also like DE for the fun of it. 
IMHO TT and DE/SS do not belong on the track together.
Peter
Long winded post
but I get your point. I know when we ran NASA HPDE4 and TT in the same group it didn't work for either party. I like both concepts ie TT for the competition factor in the Ring Warrior and I also like DE for the fun of it. IMHO TT and DE/SS do not belong on the track together.
Peter
11-06-2012, 12:28 PM
#173
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Narra TT and nasa TT are doing a pretty good job of running TT in small! groups.
they send out faster cars first, followed by slower cars in order of quali lap times, so until they start lapping each other there is no traffic and combined with small groups and that the typical TT driver only running a few flyer laps for the best ulitimate time they made it work.
I've driven nasaTT where at trackout they waved a sign saying "Drive harder pussies"
they send out faster cars first, followed by slower cars in order of quali lap times, so until they start lapping each other there is no traffic and combined with small groups and that the typical TT driver only running a few flyer laps for the best ulitimate time they made it work.
I've driven nasaTT where at trackout they waved a sign saying "Drive harder pussies"
He's very safety conscious and very experienced. He's also approachable. Check it out.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
11-06-2012, 01:06 PM
#174
Drifting
I'll call my insurance for sure.
Maybe I'll sign up for TTZ with my Dually.
Even if I can talk them into amending my policy I predict the end of Super Solo unless they scrap this TT crap now.
It's been tried and did not work and puzzling to me why you would mess with something so good and popular.
Note that any driver with a current race license is not allowed in Supersolo. The reason is that race passing and SS passing rules are completely different and unique to SS.
Why compete with TT groups that are not exactly booming with entries either?
Narra TT and nasa TT are doing a pretty good job of running TT in small! groups, they send out faster cars first, followed by slower cars in order of quali lap times, so until they start lapping each other there is no traffic and combined with small groups and that the typical TT driver only running a few flyer laps for the best ulitimate time they made it work.
I've driven nasaTT where at trackout they waved a sign saying "Drive harder pussies" They "best" drivers were encouranging very racey and rough driving. They were in full blown race cars and raced competetively. I really felt out of place.
Supersolo drivers are not going there as they prefer SS rules and run entire sessions at pace, just working on their driving ability.
When they mixed Narra TT with Supersolo it was a disaster because a TT driver will not give up a flyer lap and either hold up a train of SS guys or take a pass without respecting the 50-50 cornering rule because it will destroy their lap. SuperSolo drivers will line up and drive on the track whenever, so always in the way of a TT driver both slower and faster..
I really dont need to go side by side with a $500.00 TTF car that is going for the win with a person driving that we have no idea what kind of car control or traffic awareness they might or might not have.
I dont need to sit behind a Corvette that is warming his tires but blocks you because he does not want to be held up on his next flyer lap.
In Supersolo there should be nothing to win and we should not be on the track with cars that are racing for the win. This will not work for TT guys either because the SS group is way to large for clean track.
I personally just want to have the best chance at a clean lap, with people I am comfortable with driving door to door through a turn. My goal and hobby is to improve my driving (using laptimes a a measuring point against myself, not as a scoring measure against others) with the least amount of risk.
Its called Driving Education.
Some SS drovers came up with their own scoring and classification system and guess what they are used to running and winning TT. Still the laptimes are individually shown as an option and it is more an elbow ribbing joke than it is a scoring system. Cars run whatever they bring and there is no classification.
There are lots of respected slow SS drivers that are extremely safe to pass anywhere at any speed.
The reason that the group can be so large is that there are no point by's and there is great flow around the track, albeit with loss of laptime for passing and being passed cars. No trains.
SuperSolo is kinda by invitation only, self policing group that only works because of the camaraderie and awareness amongs ourself of all drivers and their ability in terms of car control and traffic awareness.
If a few members decide someone is not safe to be around, can show what happened and others agree that it is posing an uneeded risk, he gets uninvited.
They usually know who they are and they will either get the hint and back it up before the offical vote or they don't and they can go back to Solo or TT until they get re-invited with provisional sessions sporting big X on the car, just like other new provisionals.
Because we have been pretty strict this no point by group has worked very well when everyone said it could not be done. Maybe the naysayers will be proven right after all.
The rules and philosophy clash between TT and SS and I fear the change will kill my beloved SS group.
If my insurance covers me I will try it out, but I see myself going in solo :-(
Maybe I'll sign up for TTZ with my Dually.
Even if I can talk them into amending my policy I predict the end of Super Solo unless they scrap this TT crap now.
It's been tried and did not work and puzzling to me why you would mess with something so good and popular.
Note that any driver with a current race license is not allowed in Supersolo. The reason is that race passing and SS passing rules are completely different and unique to SS.
Why compete with TT groups that are not exactly booming with entries either?
Narra TT and nasa TT are doing a pretty good job of running TT in small! groups, they send out faster cars first, followed by slower cars in order of quali lap times, so until they start lapping each other there is no traffic and combined with small groups and that the typical TT driver only running a few flyer laps for the best ulitimate time they made it work.
I've driven nasaTT where at trackout they waved a sign saying "Drive harder pussies" They "best" drivers were encouranging very racey and rough driving. They were in full blown race cars and raced competetively. I really felt out of place.
Supersolo drivers are not going there as they prefer SS rules and run entire sessions at pace, just working on their driving ability.
When they mixed Narra TT with Supersolo it was a disaster because a TT driver will not give up a flyer lap and either hold up a train of SS guys or take a pass without respecting the 50-50 cornering rule because it will destroy their lap. SuperSolo drivers will line up and drive on the track whenever, so always in the way of a TT driver both slower and faster..
I really dont need to go side by side with a $500.00 TTF car that is going for the win with a person driving that we have no idea what kind of car control or traffic awareness they might or might not have.
I dont need to sit behind a Corvette that is warming his tires but blocks you because he does not want to be held up on his next flyer lap.
In Supersolo there should be nothing to win and we should not be on the track with cars that are racing for the win. This will not work for TT guys either because the SS group is way to large for clean track.
I personally just want to have the best chance at a clean lap, with people I am comfortable with driving door to door through a turn. My goal and hobby is to improve my driving (using laptimes a a measuring point against myself, not as a scoring measure against others) with the least amount of risk.
Its called Driving Education.
Some SS drovers came up with their own scoring and classification system and guess what they are used to running and winning TT. Still the laptimes are individually shown as an option and it is more an elbow ribbing joke than it is a scoring system. Cars run whatever they bring and there is no classification.
There are lots of respected slow SS drivers that are extremely safe to pass anywhere at any speed.
The reason that the group can be so large is that there are no point by's and there is great flow around the track, albeit with loss of laptime for passing and being passed cars. No trains.
SuperSolo is kinda by invitation only, self policing group that only works because of the camaraderie and awareness amongs ourself of all drivers and their ability in terms of car control and traffic awareness.
If a few members decide someone is not safe to be around, can show what happened and others agree that it is posing an uneeded risk, he gets uninvited.
They usually know who they are and they will either get the hint and back it up before the offical vote or they don't and they can go back to Solo or TT until they get re-invited with provisional sessions sporting big X on the car, just like other new provisionals.
Because we have been pretty strict this no point by group has worked very well when everyone said it could not be done. Maybe the naysayers will be proven right after all.
The rules and philosophy clash between TT and SS and I fear the change will kill my beloved SS group.
If my insurance covers me I will try it out, but I see myself going in solo :-(
11-06-2012, 01:26 PM
#175
Rennlist Member
Local group here (10/10ths Motorsports) ruined their SuperSolo equivalent group by adding the TT component as well. My track insurance can't be used with them anymore. I enjoyed driving hard with a group I could trust in the corners.
NASA TT/HPDE4 in our region is a mess. The amount of clean track time you get for the price is pathetic. This is why other organizations are adding TT components, and thus ruining their own open passing run groups now.
It's a shame really.
NASA TT/HPDE4 in our region is a mess. The amount of clean track time you get for the price is pathetic. This is why other organizations are adding TT components, and thus ruining their own open passing run groups now.
It's a shame really.
11-06-2012, 01:51 PM
#177
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NARRA TT/Solo at Road Atlanta was hardly a disaster. It was quite unorganized as there was no drivers meeting to tell people what to do. DE Cup went straight to the grid early and took off racing out of the gate. The result was inability to bunch the field so the TT group could get a few clean laps in. After a few sessions Jared in his Cup and I figured it out. We just drove to the front of the grid, no matter when we got there, bunched the field, and mostly all was good.
However mixing DE cars and TT cars together is not ideal but is ok as long as the rules are set and people use self restraint.
Super Solo is much more qualified to handle this as open passing with no signals anywhere on track means it should cater to TT'ing anyways. And people are quicker and more apt to get out of the way when faster cars are approaching. Some of the NARRA solo people were really slow with that.
However mixing DE cars and TT cars together is not ideal but is ok as long as the rules are set and people use self restraint.
Super Solo is much more qualified to handle this as open passing with no signals anywhere on track means it should cater to TT'ing anyways. And people are quicker and more apt to get out of the way when faster cars are approaching. Some of the NARRA solo people were really slow with that.
11-06-2012, 01:57 PM
#178
Rennlist Member
Local group here (10/10ths Motorsports) ruined their SuperSolo equivalent group by adding the TT component as well. My track insurance can't be used with them anymore. I enjoyed driving hard with a group I could trust in the corners.
NASA TT/HPDE4 in our region is a mess. The amount of clean track time you get for the price is pathetic. This is why other organizations are adding TT components, and thus ruining their own open passing run groups now.
It's a shame really.
NASA TT/HPDE4 in our region is a mess. The amount of clean track time you get for the price is pathetic. This is why other organizations are adding TT components, and thus ruining their own open passing run groups now.
It's a shame really.
Peter
11-06-2012, 03:35 PM
#179
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Peter
Long winded post but I get your point. I know when we ran NASA HPDE4 and TT in the same group it didn't work for either party. I like both concepts ie TT for the competition factor in the Ring Warrior and I also like DE for the fun of it.
IMHO TT and DE/SS do not belong on the track together.
Peter
Long winded post
but I get your point. I know when we ran NASA HPDE4 and TT in the same group it didn't work for either party. I like both concepts ie TT for the competition factor in the Ring Warrior and I also like DE for the fun of it. IMHO TT and DE/SS do not belong on the track together.
Peter
No, just that solo is an option but then PBOC is no longer anything special.
NARRA TT/Solo at Road Atlanta was hardly a disaster. It was quite unorganized as there was no drivers meeting to tell people what to do. DE Cup went straight to the grid early and took off racing out of the gate. The result was inability to bunch the field so the TT group could get a few clean laps in. After a few sessions Jared in his Cup and I figured it out. We just drove to the front of the grid, no matter when we got there, bunched the field, and mostly all was good.
However mixing DE cars and TT cars together is not ideal but is ok as long as the rules are set and people use self restraint.
Super Solo is much more qualified to handle this as open passing with no signals anywhere on track means it should cater to TT'ing anyways. And people are quicker and more apt to get out of the way when faster cars are approaching. Some of the NARRA solo people were really slow with that.
However mixing DE cars and TT cars together is not ideal but is ok as long as the rules are set and people use self restraint.
Super Solo is much more qualified to handle this as open passing with no signals anywhere on track means it should cater to TT'ing anyways. And people are quicker and more apt to get out of the way when faster cars are approaching. Some of the NARRA solo people were really slow with that.
Yep NASA FL is still OK because it isn't to successful yet. I will not run NASA MA again (ran with them twice) because they cram way to many cars on track to maximize $$$$ at the expense of the participants. Ran with NASA at Autobahn and they failed also running HPDE 3 and 4 together with the rule you can pass a 4 without a point bye but 3's need point bye that was really fracked up.
Peter
Peter
11-06-2012, 07:52 PM
#180
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they used to do it here too when they were throwing in the radical sr-3's into advanced group. now that radicals have enough numbers, they got their own run group. back then i was 50/50 watching where i was going and watching mirrors.
instead of 3 groups of 20 minutes, they made it 4 groups of 15 minutes. then they split the day into 2 groups morning, 2 groups afternoon, whilst killing the hour lunch break. it killed the momentum of regular participation, and a lot of people stop going.