991 GT3 to Remain Manual Only
09-27-2011, 11:13 AM
#61
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09-27-2011, 11:33 AM
#63
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I think Porsche really, really knows their GT3 customers well. I'm sure they'll come up with a version of PDK that blows us away. All that PDK needs to be perfect for the GT3 is to be less perfect. The current PDK is so smooth that it almost feels like you're driving a CVT car. If they can program in a few jerky shifts like a shifter kart, we'll have both the speed advantage and the thrill of having our heads whipped back, and tires sliding sideways at every shift. Pure heaven!
09-27-2011, 04:21 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
I think your comment on "slow adopter" deserves merit. On the other hand, lets look beyond the GT3 scope of things. Look at the GT-R, F458, GT3 and Viper ACR (listed in increasing "involvement"). Despite being the quickest thing by a mile, most purists don't enjoy the GT-R. The F458 I don't have much info on as a track weapon. The Viper is too "raw" (too "involved"?) for my taste. So I don't think its a question so much of what new technology Porsche is going to install, but a fear (which I have as well) of losing the ethos of the GT3, which is a "drivers" car.
You can have that with ABS, PDK, LSD, SC, TC, and all sorts of acronyms. Porsche can build a car to "involve" you as much as you want. The fear is that Porsche will follow the GT-R route and turn our beloved GT3 into a supercomputer, a fear bourne by a perception (real or otherwise) that the company is going down the mass-market route and abandoning or at least marginalizing its motorsport and sports car core.
Also driving a GT3 places a premium on driver skill which I think is a second area of concern - when you start your relationship with your GT3, you can count on a long and rewarding training period where you learn to drive the car faster and faster. Such an important point for someone like me anyway - the journey is as important as the ultimate result. Actually a good friend of mine, after a 10 minute street drive of my 997.1 gt3, just ditched his M6 for a '10 GT3 for exactly that reason; in his own words "I miss DRIVING a car!!"
So I think its important to not miss the forest for the trees. The technology is not the problem. Its how the technology is delivered as an "experience"...
*** Am pretty sure that if you put me in a early 90's Williams F1 car with TC, active suspension, and all the other goodies that we are all so afraid of it would still be a thrill of a lifetime....
You can have that with ABS, PDK, LSD, SC, TC, and all sorts of acronyms. Porsche can build a car to "involve" you as much as you want. The fear is that Porsche will follow the GT-R route and turn our beloved GT3 into a supercomputer, a fear bourne by a perception (real or otherwise) that the company is going down the mass-market route and abandoning or at least marginalizing its motorsport and sports car core.
Also driving a GT3 places a premium on driver skill which I think is a second area of concern - when you start your relationship with your GT3, you can count on a long and rewarding training period where you learn to drive the car faster and faster. Such an important point for someone like me anyway - the journey is as important as the ultimate result. Actually a good friend of mine, after a 10 minute street drive of my 997.1 gt3, just ditched his M6 for a '10 GT3 for exactly that reason; in his own words "I miss DRIVING a car!!"
So I think its important to not miss the forest for the trees. The technology is not the problem. Its how the technology is delivered as an "experience"...
*** Am pretty sure that if you put me in a early 90's Williams F1 car with TC, active suspension, and all the other goodies that we are all so afraid of it would still be a thrill of a lifetime....
I haven't driven a 458, but I have driven a 430 scud with the paddles. It wasn't anything like a GT-R. It's impossible to drive a scuderia and not get a great "car guy" buzz; it's that good.
My point is just that it isn't the technology that takes away from the driving experience. I've driven plenty of C6 Z06s at the track too, and they are damn fast. But I don't like the steering (either with the wheel or the throttle). It just doesn't have as dynamic a response to driver input as a Porsche.
To me a "driver's car" is a car that will respond directly and precisely to driver inputs. It's a car that does what you want it to do when you want it to. A porsche has great steering and responds to minute throttle changes to correct a line perfectly, so does a new M3 (although not quite as well). Frankly, having to clutch and downshift simultaneously at corner entry is just a hassle that doesn't have much to do with the precise feel of carrying just the right amount of speed into the turn (same as threshhold braking).
But I also think the technology, independent of feel, can be an amazing thing. The GTR can do things dynamically that no human can do. Look at this video of me following one into Oak Tree at VIR. The dynamic, and rapid yaw changes of the car as it allocates torque to different wheels is just incredible:
My opinion is that "feel" (in terms of steering and precision) can be isolated from technology and that they aren't mutually exclusive (ie the 430 scud, etc.). I've been racing for 15 years, but I also know I would be faster if I could focus on the precision of my trailbraking and corner entry speed without having to downshift simultaneously (that's true of every driver on earth).
09-27-2011, 05:16 PM
#66
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Just think... if the 991 GT3 was offered both with a manual gearbox and with PDK. Most would order the manual but would hate it when the PDK's overtake them on their home track...
09-27-2011, 05:52 PM
#67
You make some great points, and no doubt the GT3 is nearly unparalled in driver involvement (mostly due to steering feel and throttle steerability).
I haven't driven a 458, but I have driven a 430 scud with the paddles. It wasn't anything like a GT-R. It's impossible to drive a scuderia and not get a great "car guy" buzz; it's that good.
My point is just that it isn't the technology that takes away from the driving experience. I've driven plenty of C6 Z06s at the track too, and they are damn fast. But I don't like the steering (either with the wheel or the throttle). It just doesn't have as dynamic a response to driver input as a Porsche.
To me a "driver's car" is a car that will respond directly and precisely to driver inputs. It's a car that does what you want it to do when you want it to. A porsche has great steering and responds to minute throttle changes to correct a line perfectly, so does a new M3 (although not quite as well). Frankly, having to clutch and downshift simultaneously at corner entry is just a hassle that doesn't have much to do with the precise feel of carrying just the right amount of speed into the turn (same as threshhold braking).
But I also think the technology, independent of feel, can be an amazing thing. The GTR can do things dynamically that no human can do. Look at this video of me following one into Oak Tree at VIR. The dynamic, and rapid yaw changes of the car as it allocates torque to different wheels is just incredible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_-dcOnRUs0
My opinion is that "feel" (in terms of steering and precision) can be isolated from technology and that they aren't mutually exclusive (ie the 430 scud, etc.). I've been racing for 15 years, but I also know I would be faster if I could focus on the precision of my trailbraking and corner entry speed without having to downshift simultaneously (that's true of every driver on earth).
I haven't driven a 458, but I have driven a 430 scud with the paddles. It wasn't anything like a GT-R. It's impossible to drive a scuderia and not get a great "car guy" buzz; it's that good.
My point is just that it isn't the technology that takes away from the driving experience. I've driven plenty of C6 Z06s at the track too, and they are damn fast. But I don't like the steering (either with the wheel or the throttle). It just doesn't have as dynamic a response to driver input as a Porsche.
To me a "driver's car" is a car that will respond directly and precisely to driver inputs. It's a car that does what you want it to do when you want it to. A porsche has great steering and responds to minute throttle changes to correct a line perfectly, so does a new M3 (although not quite as well). Frankly, having to clutch and downshift simultaneously at corner entry is just a hassle that doesn't have much to do with the precise feel of carrying just the right amount of speed into the turn (same as threshhold braking).
But I also think the technology, independent of feel, can be an amazing thing. The GTR can do things dynamically that no human can do. Look at this video of me following one into Oak Tree at VIR. The dynamic, and rapid yaw changes of the car as it allocates torque to different wheels is just incredible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_-dcOnRUs0
My opinion is that "feel" (in terms of steering and precision) can be isolated from technology and that they aren't mutually exclusive (ie the 430 scud, etc.). I've been racing for 15 years, but I also know I would be faster if I could focus on the precision of my trailbraking and corner entry speed without having to downshift simultaneously (that's true of every driver on earth).
Or, you can call it a modern race car. You can be quicker than TC, or SC, or ABS. But no human on earth can outrun a modern paddle shift, not with a sequential and absolutely not with an H-pattern. The argument has become polemic almost.
I have a huge respect for what Nissan accomplished with the GT-R. Really. But I have a greater respect for what Porsche has accomplished with the GT3 since its inception a dozen years ago.
Provided they remain (somewhat) true to their "purist" customer base, I am sure the GT cars will continue to be amazing. Manual or otherwise. Here's hoping
09-27-2011, 05:59 PM
#68
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Was sitting at the same table in Frankfurt and did not come away with that as a take-away...
My take was that Porsche management sees demand for manuals, especially in the most sporting models, and will continue to offer a manual as long as there is real demand for it. I don't see how that rules PDK out — unless the GTx models continue to use a different transmission than the Carrera-based cars.
The fact that the Turbo is up and running (and how) with PDK would suggest the new gearboxes can handle big torque.
In other words, it will be interesting to see how PAG plays the next GT3.
pete
My take was that Porsche management sees demand for manuals, especially in the most sporting models, and will continue to offer a manual as long as there is real demand for it. I don't see how that rules PDK out — unless the GTx models continue to use a different transmission than the Carrera-based cars.
The fact that the Turbo is up and running (and how) with PDK would suggest the new gearboxes can handle big torque.
In other words, it will be interesting to see how PAG plays the next GT3.
pete
09-27-2011, 06:05 PM
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what if the next Porsche GT3 is a Turbo? BMW is doing it with the M division, and MB with AMG, and Porsche always follow what BMW/MB do in the interest of selling more cars..
09-27-2011, 06:14 PM
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hadn't crossed my mind but.... I'd be surprised especially if/when they actually start racing these engines (assuming they do) but they've not really used turbos for racing for a while (GT1 aside).... Then again if they want to win the performance figures in magazines 0-60 and all that stuff it would make it easier I guess.
09-27-2011, 07:15 PM
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09-27-2011, 07:26 PM
#74
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C'mon now. The best 911 I've ever driven had a turbocharged 3.4...and I defy you to drive that car and tell me any different. On the other hand, the best road-going Porsche I've ever driven wasn't a 911. And it wasn't turbocharged and didn't stick to six cylinders, either. 
If I've learned anything along this road, it's that new (or old) ideas, when brilliantly executed, can be, well, brilliant. And fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun.
pete
If I've learned anything along this road, it's that new (or old) ideas, when brilliantly executed, can be, well, brilliant. And fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun.
pete
09-27-2011, 07:31 PM
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C'mon now. The best 911 I've ever driven had a turbocharged 3.4...and I defy you to drive that car and tell me any different. On the other hand, the best road-going Porsche I've ever driven wasn't a 911. And it wasn't turbocharged and didn't stick to six cylinders, either.
If I've learned anything along this road, it's that new (or old) ideas, when brilliantly executed, can be, well, brilliant. And fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun.
pete
If I've learned anything along this road, it's that new (or old) ideas, when brilliantly executed, can be, well, brilliant. And fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun.
pete
But it was also light as heck and had proper steering, a hand brake etc... I know I'll come around but I'm hoping that the Turbo charged GT car remains a GT2 and we have a fun high-revving NA car as the GT3