philooo

Jlee, what did you think of the CLK black series ? why did you sell it ? any mercedes quality issues on those cars ? I always loved this CLK BS

jlee

No issues at all. It was just time to move on and I missed the 2007 GT3 that I had. The CLK BS is kind of like the GT3 fused with an american muscle car. It is a very fun car to drive but not as agile feeling due to its weight even though the engine has a lot of torque.

Larry Cable

Here I am, late to the party as usual.

I agree with Mooty the .2 is significantly better than the .1 handling wise in a few regards regards:

1) they changed the suspension geo and some of the components (swaybars) as well as reducing the spring rates and recalibrated the PASM accordingly

So, I think the car is much less susceptible to both initial turn in understeer as well as general stability (much less tramlining) IMHO

2) PDEM ...

While I dont think you can 'feel' PDEM I do think it also affects the initial turn in as well as overall stability thru the corner

3) Aero ...

While not significant at low speed the .2 has 2x the downforce of the .1 which again improves high speed stability

RS is even better than the .2 GT3 due to the wider track, 245s up front and additional aero too...

Larry Cable

The 996.2 is the surgeons scalpel of the GT3's ... its also probably the most sensitive to (mis)alignment...

Both the 996's (but the .2 in particular) demand a LOT more skill and concentration from their pilots to extract the best/fastest from them ... which ultimately (for some) makes them more rewarding ...

which car is "better" it depends on how you define better; I might argue that my '04 GT3 was the best ... although my '99 Clubsport probably gave me the biggest thrill of (initial) ownership ... I loved my '07 ... especially driving it at the
ring ... but technology wise the '10 probably is the last "true" GT3 and the car
is so good its "silly grin" good!

silverboy

Larry,

If one changes toe links and dog bones and eventually shocks - does the RS.1 surpass or equal the RS.2?

Peter

Larry Cable

Beats me, never been a .1 or .2 RS guy ... so I have zero seat time.

I have gone a bit retro in my old age vis a vis suspension work; when I was younger I would be (almost the 1st) to start dropping all sorts of expensive/
exotic suspension **** into my cars (well one of them was an RS America and
it needed some help) ...

The problem is that once you have an adjustable suspension you need (someone to) adjust it. With all due respect (as Ricky Bobby would say) to our venerable forum, that is a skillset that few amateurs have (and I include myself in that at the head of the line thereof).

Now if you are lucky and you have a local shop that has experience with GT3 suspension setup then you have a head start, but they will setup the car according to either their preference, or recommended, specifications.

Problem with that is that specification might not suit the drivers style or ability.

Professional teams and drivers with the correct experience and telemetry can play with spring rates, toe, camber, compression and rebound etc to tune the suspension for the driver and the track.

A great example of this is Manthey Racing in Germany, located alongside the Nurburgring, they are the "kings" of the GT3 alignment specs for the Ring, and it shows in their repeated victories in endurance races there.

So, my aged opinion is that for the vast majority of us, installing Motons or K&Ws, replacing the sways, drop links, toe links etc is a great way to throw
$10k away ... because we dont have the skillset or the tools to properly adjust
the suspension setup... nor probably are we driving the cars (on track) at speeds/limits that would fully leverage the suspension mods.

If you did all that to a .1 RS and got a reasonable alignment I am sure it might be a few seconds faster around a track, but it would also be less streetable (and when/if you come to sell it you will recover close to $0 for those modifications, ask me how I know this!).

It all depends I think on what you want to extract from the car and yourself and in what circumstances.

If you are going to do this, many would recommend changing *everything* at the same time as it will save on labor costs, I think a more incremental approach would be better in the long run, apart from anything else you learn as you go, and you learn how the car changes with the changes you make.

I'd start with a good alignment on your car as it is; baseline its performance/handling with the appropriate telemtery (GPS, Video, accelerometers, etc) so you know how fast you can go, where you brake, turn in, power on, then progress from there ... toe links, dog bones, monoballs etc

But also make sure you have a shop/mech that can support you in this as you add these components ...

otherwise you might as well put a big subwoofer and a PS3 in the headrest!

4porsh

The last few replies from Larry Cable are right on, informative, honest, and just tell it how it is. Hope to meet you at the track some day.

joe

FTS

Right on Larry, right on.

I think we all seen many examples of bad setups. One thing that I think it is also important to note is that just because someone is a good driver, does not mean they know what they are doing with the suspension. Once there are adjustable components on the car, most drivers I've talked to focus on the setup rather than driving. Frankly, especially with alignment and shocks, I find that I enjoy driving a lot more when I have fewer adjustable components. And the best tool I have for improving my driving, increasing my enjoyment of the car and gradually reducing my lap times is a data logger, it almost never lies

CRex

+1 on Larry's points.

I've learned the stupid way that suspension engineering's a full time job. Infinitely adjustable shocks/arms/links/whatevers require infinite track time and trial-and-error to hone in on that one best setting for you. Until then, your car may drive better or worse. If you frequent more than one track then expect to rinse and repeat all year round

Should the planets align and I can afford a cup car some day I'll be inclined to give it the beans and have everything tweaked professionally. Until then, less is probably more for my cars...

996FLT6

With regards to suspension setups- it's really ^all trial and error dependent on driver. I wish there was a standard but there is none. U compensate. Are professional drivers doing lemans where they have 3-5 drivers can alter suspension settings on the fly for each driver. If so- they should win : )!!! Mike

Larry Cable

just as an example of this, think about a 2-way adjustable shock system; firstly you have to get the spring rates for the F & R "correct" that is "tuned" so that the F and R springs compress and rebound at the correct (complimentary) rates, this is dependent upon the weight of the car over the front and the rear axles, it could be 50/50 or 40/60 etc ... and the dynamic you want to "dial in" to the system...

Then once you have that right, you need to valve the shock absorbers accordingly so they compress and rebound with the springs; after all the role of the shock absorber is actually as a damper for the spring. This is a professional job. On some tracks you will want a very stiff suspension (high spring rates) on others you will want softer (lower spring rates), then you can
throw in linear vs progressive springs too ...

We'll skip over the role of the swaybars here ...

Once you have that on the car how now do you adjust the compression and rebound of the dampers on the car? Sure you click a little **** or turn a screw,
but how do you figure out what the "best" setting is for you, your car, and the track ... and you not only do this for the front but you also have to dial in the rear as well. In short it is highly complex and interdependent, and all of this is
not considering any of the alignment variables also.

For anyone that thinks this is simple, or without consequences, try adjusting your swaybars to full soft and go drive a track ... in fact dont ... because in
all likelyhood you will hit something ...a relatively simple adjustment turns a great handling car into something that would appear in a car chase in an episode of "streets of San Francisco"

Its not like we shouldn't play with this stuff, but honestly acquring the skillset to really understand the variables in a suspension setup and be able to adjust them to their fullest extent is I think above and beyond ...

A good set of track tyres and wheels, and alignment/corner balance, a fluid flush, some new brake pads and some coaching will probably give a better return per $ ...

that of course doesn't mean its not fun to show off your new 3 way adjustable, remote reservior, custom valved exotic suspension ...

TRAKCAR

I think I do, from left to right to left at Sebring, I think the *** tosses less.

Also, I had double adjustable Koni's on my Mustang and it is hell to figure it all out, even worse with adjustable sway bars..

911SLOW

Nothing will ever beat the feeling of driving a mk1 for the first time!
Even if you owned a 993RS the first drive of the daddy of the GT3's was a life changing driving event. Fluid , raw, light, fast, and scary just some quick words.

The best gt3 for me always..

+1 on all other Larry remarks on this thread !

TRAKCAR

I want to be Larry when I grow up.

Larry Cable

I loved my 99 clubsport ... It was the first car I drove on the ring ... Quite an experience

I would love to drive a 993 RS as well as a 964RS as well!