ZSA Motorsport

someone asked me, i had no clue. figured i'd ask.

a buddy is interested in buying a very lightly spec'd GT3.2. he's going to track it. the one downside both he and i feel is the ceramic brakes. dont get me wrong, i think the pccbs are awsome stoppers, but if he's going to pound on the thing, and doesnt want to get involved in huge costs for replacing system components as they expire, my sentiment was to go with steel brake setup. plus, frankly, my 2010 GT3 has steels and wow, they tend to be just about all the braking i think i could use. sure, obviously, id always LOVE more braking, but at what cost?

so my question to you guys with experience with the ceramics and steels on the track:
1. is my position valid? am i missing something?
2. what are the costs to replaces the consumables on a ceramic setup? rotors? pads? anything else get costly to replace?
3. can he just buy it with ceramics, and take off the ceramic rotores, put on steel rotors and pagid steel pads?
4. what do , fyi, ceramic rotors cost per rotor, and pads??

thoughts, ideas? whatcha' think in this regard??

for some, sure, money is no object. but sometimes there are limits and for some, a 2010 GT3 is a reach to begin with. noone wants to then drop $15k on rotors here and there.

GT3

1. Valid question, but as long as P50 Green pad are used, DSC/TC OFF, SFR fluid used, proper bleeding and always change fluid (or test it) before/after track days, there wont be any problems with the rotors. I know people that do 30-40 track days (just over 60K miles on the car) with their PCCB GT3s and still have the original rotors. 99% of people who have messed up their PCCBs in the past, did not maintain them properly, or used the right pads, fluid.

2. Again, only if not maintained properly, the rotor may need replacement. I get my P50 Green pads for $410 fronts and $425 rears. SFR castrol brake fluid is about $60-$70.

3. He can buy it with ceramic and replace the rotors with steels...

4. Ceramic rotors are supposed to be close to $16K retail for the set of 4. Used with 10K-12K miles can be had for $5K-6K on average. PBBC Porsche approved pad price (above).

I ordered my GT3 with PCCBs. I figured Id try them and know Id regret it if I didnt get them. I love them and have started to track the car 12-15 times at least per year. If tracked, steel usually need to be replaced every 6K miles or so (abouth $3000 for a full set every time, I think), because cracks here and there, plus pads, which cost about the same as the PCCB P50 green pads. If tracked, and maintained properly, PCCB rotors will last over 50K miles.... maybe more.... 45 lbs less, no fade(great in short track with many turns), no dust, less longterm cost. I do 10-15 very aggressive laps nonstop sessions depending on the track; knowing the brake wont fade or fail me: Priceless.

Thats my point of view, based on what I know, not what I've heard.

Larry Cable

My $0.02:

1) it's a valid position, and much discussed previously on the forum (not knocking you, just fyi)

2) AFIAK pads are approx the same cost for PCCB as steels (but you should confirm) ... many people use a motorsport pad for better performance/wear
the replacement rotor cost is signigificant, apprxo $5k vs $14k it is rumoured

3) there is some speculation that the .2 steel caliper and rotors are a bolt on
replacement for the .2 PCCB, some are in the process of testing this
theory, I dont think anyone has yet (dis)proved it by actual experiment yet
if in fact it is true ... then many a PCCB owner will be very happy indeed

if it is not true, then there are some (emerging) aftermarket solutions

4) I have personally never had the moral fortitude to find out how bad it is ...
I think it's "bad" ...

NJ-GT

I have been talking to Ferrari Challenge owners and teams, they are replacing the front CCB every 2 Ferrari Challenge events, and the rears every three events. 2 sets of rear rotors per season, 3 sets of front rotors per season, the bills exceed $60k a year just for brakes (would exceed $80k for a street car). They have 6 events per year, each event has about 4-6 hours of track time (practice, qualifying and 2 races), each race lasts 1 hour. So, every 12 hours for the front rotors and every 18 hours for the rear rotors. They run slicks, so they wear out rotors much more than cars on DOT-R tires, and they are Racing which is a different pace than a DE with the slow traffic, warm up laps, cool down laps, etc.

I read in Christophorus 2 or 3 years ago the interview with a SuperCup team about the PCCB. The team said that with steel rotors, they were using a new set every race, with PCCB the rear rotors were good for the entire season and the front required 2 sets per season.

The Porsche SuperCup has 10 races this year, they are short sprint races less than 30 minutes, but they put 2 to 3 hours of total track time per race, with 2 practice sessions of 30-45 minutes, a qualifying session of 30-45 minutes and the race that lasts less than 30 minutes. In the best case scenario (the longest use), rear PCCB rotors last 30 hours and front rotors 15 hours. Worse case scenario, rear rotors 20 hours and front rotors 10 hours. The worse case Porsche SuperCup scenario is very similar to what the Ferrari Challenge series is getting.

The 997 GT3 Cup is lighter than the F430 Challenge by 200 lbs, they both run slicks, but the Porsche doesn't have ABS (ABS is bad for CCB rotors), so the Porsche rotors should last a little longer.

The street cars (GT3/GT2/GT3RS/F430/Scuderia) are a lot heavier than the race cars, but typically we run these cars on DOT-R tires such as A6, V710, R6, MPSC, Corsa, etc, so we don't put the same abuse on the rotors. My guess is that we can get twice the life of PCCB/CCB compared to the guys racing on them (SuperCup and Trofeo Pirelli), something between 40-60 track hours as long as we take care of the rotors.

PCCB and light track use is fine. 10 hours of track use per year should give around 4-6 years of life on the rotors, as long as the pads are not run beyond 50% of their original thickness, and brakes are cooled down properly after a track session, and you're not using very sticky tires (slicks), or you're just doing lapping days with a bunch of slow guys are you are among the slowest, and you are not hammering the ABS. This is 5-6 years of street use without any spirited driving, and 40-60 hours of track time.

If you can afford the Porsche $16k bill every 40-60 hours of track time, go for PCCB, otherwise don't. If your track group runs 2 hours per day, you will have PCCB for 20 to 30 track days. I get about 1 hour of track time at a given track day, on my last two track days, I got less than 45 minutes. Some clubs have 3 hours of track time.

Street driving (not spirited) has virtually zero wear on PCCB. That's why Porsche came with the outrageous 180,000 miles lifetime for PCCB rotors.

kush07

I have the PCCB's and chickened out. I swapped them out and put on iron due to what I was reading about rotor wear on the track. My thought was there's no way I'm replacing these ceramics, so I boxed them up essentially for the next owner of the car.

Then I read a few posts by guys like JDM above with real world experience and am second guessing that decision. I currently feel, when my iron rotors wear out, I'm going back to my ceramics, get the P50's (which I didn't even know about at the time), and if they wear, they wear. Why give someone else the thrill of using these things?

I was concerned that I'd be screwed by selling my car with yellow calipers but iron rotors. Now I don't really care. If it comes to it, I take a hit. Doubt it'll be too big. Who knows; you only live once.

95spiderman

swapped my steel front rotors for deman slotted ones. less $ and no cracking. recommend them if want to change from pccb for track use

80shilling

You are spot on..

I have now put 45+ sessions (going through 2 sets of P50's) on my GT2 with PCCBS and the Porsche Motorsports/Pagid Green P50's.. The rotors are still WAY within spec, they work flawlessly at the track and I am POUNDING on them.. Turning 1:37 laps at Laguna in traffic, doing 10 sessions a day, some of them back-to-back, so no cool down... I am running Hoosier R6's in 245/35-18 front and 315/30-18 Rear...

I think that as long as you bed the pads in correctly, use top quality brake fluid (I have used ATE Super Blue and Motul 660) and keep checking your rotors and pads to see if there are any issues, you should be fine.

Other people HAVE had issues with running PCCB's at the track, including a couple of guys that ran them on their GT3 RS Cars and they went to steel rotors; but those issues had to do with strange ABS behaviour (brake lockup) and not the PCCB's having any structural issues.

As a precaution, I bought a set of PCCB rotors used with only 900 miles on them for $4K from a local guy... Seems like a good deal to me and cheap insurance.

A great resource for information on this issue is Craig at Rennstore.. Call him and pick his brains on this subject.

Cheers...

silverboy

Is it very important to change brake fluid often to 'preserve' the PCCB rotors?

GT3

My shop checks/tests the brake fluid for me before/after track events to see if its boiled, or not within the optimum performance properties. They do it before/after track days, or whenever I say I want to change it. Multiple times they have told me, the fluid still good and no fluid change was necessary, other times it needed to be changed. SFR lasts longer than motoul. Motoul brake fluid may go "bad" after time, even without much tracking.....

Its very important, to make sure that before or after the car is tracked, that the fluid had not boiled, or gone bad. If it did, it should be replaced. I know that doing so, will give the best braking performance needed.It could only help the rotors, but I do it more than anything to avoid any failures at the track...

Then again, Im one of those people that checks the alignment, suspension, brake pads, frequently and do oil changes before a track event is I already have 2K miles on it and/or change it right after a track events Peace of mind, I guess...

Carrera GT

Great post. I appreciate the trail blazing.

1:37 in a GT2 (that's a 996?) on Hooters is pretty decent motoring.

Questions:

What bed-in process do you use for the pads?

What's the cheapest source for Porsche Motorsport supplied P50 Greens; and for Hoosiers?

I'm in the Bay Area and try to make it to Laguna and Sears as often as possible.

Next time we're both at the same place, you're welcome to take a ride in the new RS to see how the GT2 compares.

Thanks!

roberga

Had 60,000+ on my 996 Gt3 50k of it with the P50 they were great. 20k on 997 Gt3 same story. Impact it the risk to the rotors. Stay on the pavement and all is well.

Tedster

One other issue reported in Excellence Mag in the RS review this month. Heel & toe is not easy with the ceramics. Brake pedal too high except for max braking. Nice initial bite but no better stopping distance in the reviews I have seen. In my mind the ceramics are just bling. Steel still rules for the track! Paint your calipers yellow and save $ if you need the bling.

NJ-GT

How long is your track session? in Socal a typical track session is 15-20 minutes, and part of the session is a warm up, so you're lucky if you get 15 minutes of heavy track use, that should put you somewhere at 11 hours of track use, still early on the life span for PCCB.

I ran a set of PCCB for 34,000 miles, and they already had 5,000 street miles when I bought them. They had 2 track days by the previous owner, and I put around 3,000 track miles (somewhere around 33 hours). By the time I sold the car they had around 35 hours of track time, the front ones were showing sign of wear and the rear ones were still pretty good. However, I was getting close to the 40-60 hours track time life on them (for the front ones). I think for the 996 the front should take around 40 hours of track use (don't count parade laps, warm up laps, cool down laps as track time) and the rear ones around 60 hours. For the 997 GT3, given the change on brake bias, it should reach aorund 60 hours on both axles (the 997 uses stronger PCCB).

By the way, good move on buying used PCCB rotors with low mileage, that definitely makes them cheaper to run than Steel.

On slicks, they take much more abuse, a US 997 GT3 Cup car laps Laguna in 1:29, and the SuperCups are even faster (faster drivers and lighter cars), plus they run on faster racetracks (F1 racetracks).

Around 10 track days a year (typical 4 track sessions per day), ends up being 40 track sessions and 10 hours of track use. That's good for 4-6 years, on DOT-R tires. Street miles (not spirited driving) do practically nothing to PCCB.

TrackDays247.com

P50s. Appears to resist chunking much more than OEM. I have a fresh shipment from PMNA, ready to roll -

*People are VERY happy with the P50s*

ZSA Motorsport

correctamundo...thats why we have some rolling from you to me.