DSG is so good...
10-04-2009, 02:40 AM
#1
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
DSG is so good...
truly it is.
the first time i was introduced to the current DSG system i asked myself, "why is this different from other automatics?". one drive and i knew; this was the best darn auto tranny ever. in full auto, shifts were as smooth or smoother than any slusher. in anger it was faster than any human.
a simple symmetrical button system.
was this the Great White Whale at last? the "perfect" marriage of stick and auto?
NOT
guess it all comes down to BORING
faced the new P-car (GT3) with trepidation. back to stick (and a heavy clutched one at that); traffic jams,slipping clutches at low speed, work, where does the coffee go while driving? what if the phone rings while sipping hot java and matching revs for the upcoming fast sweeper opening into two lanes...???
then i drove "old" stick again and never realized how much was being missed in an automatic trans. which lead to another thought...the reason my C2S Cab had to go is that it was really not much different to drive than my outlaw Jetta. sure it's a P-car through and through and all. but in retrospect it was RoboCar- there, tirelessly serving my every need; "poor boy...don't hurt your skinny ankle, you might snap a tendon, pushing that silly old spring..let me get that for you Snookums"
why, Thank You!
but the real pay off with 'ole Paint is the shifter. and perhaps this is a guy thing, but with your right hand on the hilt and your left on the wheel, it just feels Right.
while one may speculate that 20 yrs from now, whole Gens of young people won't know WTF to do with that third pedal in that antique of Grandpa's, i suspect that some Luddites will remain. it's just too much fun this way...
the first time i was introduced to the current DSG system i asked myself, "why is this different from other automatics?". one drive and i knew; this was the best darn auto tranny ever. in full auto, shifts were as smooth or smoother than any slusher. in anger it was faster than any human.
a simple symmetrical button system.
was this the Great White Whale at last? the "perfect" marriage of stick and auto?
NOT
guess it all comes down to BORING
faced the new P-car (GT3) with trepidation. back to stick (and a heavy clutched one at that); traffic jams,slipping clutches at low speed, work, where does the coffee go while driving? what if the phone rings while sipping hot java and matching revs for the upcoming fast sweeper opening into two lanes...???
then i drove "old" stick again and never realized how much was being missed in an automatic trans. which lead to another thought...the reason my C2S Cab had to go is that it was really not much different to drive than my outlaw Jetta. sure it's a P-car through and through and all. but in retrospect it was RoboCar- there, tirelessly serving my every need; "poor boy...don't hurt your skinny ankle, you might snap a tendon, pushing that silly old spring..let me get that for you Snookums"
why, Thank You!
but the real pay off with 'ole Paint is the shifter. and perhaps this is a guy thing, but with your right hand on the hilt and your left on the wheel, it just feels Right.
while one may speculate that 20 yrs from now, whole Gens of young people won't know WTF to do with that third pedal in that antique of Grandpa's, i suspect that some Luddites will remain. it's just too much fun this way...
10-04-2009, 03:16 AM
#2
Banned
Absolutely agree. PDK is great, but it is boring. It may be faster on the track with all else being equal (this is why Cup cars have sequential shifters/trannys), but not as sayisfying or fun (although sequential sounds like it would still be lots o' fun). I do very well on the track for my skill level, but still suck at H&T for some reason (laziness is a large part of it), but on some days I nail it pretty good, and it feels great!
I have to say this. Right arm on the shifter and left on the wheel may be "cool," but is far from professional and is not good for tranny if you put any kind of weight on the shifter. I know you know that, but my fingers had to type this; I had no choice; I hope you understand.
I have to say this. Right arm on the shifter and left on the wheel may be "cool," but is far from professional and is not good for tranny if you put any kind of weight on the shifter. I know you know that, but my fingers had to type this; I had no choice; I hope you understand.
10-04-2009, 07:32 AM
#3
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have any of you guys driven the DCT M3? .... an amazing gearbox indeed and in fact i thought more fun than its manual counterpart ... but then again i am from the PlayStation generation ... 
have not driven a PDK, but that manual gear selector is very counter-intuitive ...
have not driven a PDK, but that manual gear selector is very counter-intuitive ...
10-04-2009, 08:25 AM
#4
Banned
Yes I have, and yes, it is a great car with a great tranny (actually I hate to say great car since the M3's ever evolving weight gain makes me sick to my stomach). I guess everyone's idea of fun is different. I think the DCT or PDK can be fun because it can quickly and easily turn anyone into the perfect shifting racecar driver without any effort. And I can see that as being fun since I admit that I am very lazy. But I also think it would get old quickly and you would miss doing your own rev matching down shifts, H&T driving, and just rowing a real H pattern manual and controling 3 pedals. It is more satisfying in the end.
If I wanted my track driving to be easy, I would buy a GTR. It has a mode to do it all for you; you just need to be in the ballpark of the correct speed to be at when approching a corner, and have a clue about where to turn in and apex. Once you know that for a particular track you should be a hero driver for the outside observers. When I drive on the track I try to impress myself.
Btw, I'm not saying you are one of these guys, just simply laying it out for you; the thinking involved in wanting a manual over PDK. Same as wanting a rear engine 911 without driver aids over an easier, more balanced platform which is then made even easier with every electronic trick in the book. Might as well take my soul away and tattoo my social on my forhead!
10-04-2009, 10:50 AM
#5
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
how can someone be able to drive a normal manual, and then say two buttons with duplicate patterns are "counter-intuitive"?
not to dis anyone (life's too short), but i just have a hard time understanding why normal guys say this.
not to dis anyone (life's too short), but i just have a hard time understanding why normal guys say this.
10-04-2009, 12:03 PM
#6
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not quite understand your post mate but common sense would dictate you click right to upshift and click left to downshift ... most manfacturers design their sequential and double clutch gearboxes to operate this way. Why did porsche with their pdk not go this route ... So to me the design to operate the box is counterintuitive
10-04-2009, 12:11 PM
#7
not quite understand your post mate but common sense would dictate you click right to upshift and click left to downshift ... most manfacturers design their sequential and double clutch gearboxes to operate this way. Why did porsche with their pdk not go this route ... So to me the design to operate the box is counterintuitive
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10-04-2009, 01:22 PM
#8
not quite understand your post mate but common sense would dictate you click right to upshift and click left to downshift ... most manfacturers design their sequential and double clutch gearboxes to operate this way. Why did porsche with their pdk not go this route ... So to me the design to operate the box is counterintuitive
In any case, why not just make it something for the driver to configure to their own preference using the same "Settings" interface?
After 3K miles, I don't find the PDK shifter system all that intuitive or counter-intuitive. I find the button position intolerable for aggressive driving because an upshift can occur unintentionally.
By whatever means, factory parts or after-market, I want to go to paddles or a redesigned wheel button that is much heavier and spaced away from wheel. I think I'd like left-up/right-dn, but having driven this only briefing in other cars, I'm not ingrained in any particular action.
I believe the Formula 1 "convention" is appropriate for steering wheels designed to turn lock to lock in less than one full rotation, but having paddles in fixed locations becomes relevant in a road car with a longer steering ratio -- once you're into a hair-pin, figuring out where the wheel buttons are relative to your hands (shuffled or crossed over) becomes too much of a distraction.
It's not particularly useful in a manual gearbox, but with PDK, it's an option to get down into 1st at the apex of a hairpin. With paddles, this would be a matter of reaching out to a consistent, fixed point. With the current PDK buttons, the buttons are not necessarily near your fingers once you've turned the wheel more than a half turn.
10-04-2009, 02:05 PM
#9
truly it is.
the first time i was introduced to the current DSG system i asked myself, "why is this different from other automatics?". one drive and i knew; this was the best darn auto tranny ever. in full auto, shifts were as smooth or smoother than any slusher. in anger it was faster than any human.
a simple symmetrical button system.
was this the Great White Whale at last? the "perfect" marriage of stick and auto?
NOT
guess it all comes down to BORING
faced the new P-car (GT3) with trepidation. back to stick (and a heavy clutched one at that); traffic jams,slipping clutches at low speed, work, where does the coffee go while driving? what if the phone rings while sipping hot java and matching revs for the upcoming fast sweeper opening into two lanes...???
then i drove "old" stick again and never realized how much was being missed in an automatic trans. which lead to another thought...the reason my C2S Cab had to go is that it was really not much different to drive than my outlaw Jetta. sure it's a P-car through and through and all. but in retrospect it was RoboCar- there, tirelessly serving my every need; "poor boy...don't hurt your skinny ankle, you might snap a tendon, pushing that silly old spring..let me get that for you Snookums"
why, Thank You!
but the real pay off with 'ole Paint is the shifter. and perhaps this is a guy thing, but with your right hand on the hilt and your left on the wheel, it just feels Right.
while one may speculate that 20 yrs from now, whole Gens of young people won't know WTF to do with that third pedal in that antique of Grandpa's, i suspect that some Luddites will remain. it's just too much fun this way...
the first time i was introduced to the current DSG system i asked myself, "why is this different from other automatics?". one drive and i knew; this was the best darn auto tranny ever. in full auto, shifts were as smooth or smoother than any slusher. in anger it was faster than any human.
a simple symmetrical button system.
was this the Great White Whale at last? the "perfect" marriage of stick and auto?
NOT
guess it all comes down to BORING
faced the new P-car (GT3) with trepidation. back to stick (and a heavy clutched one at that); traffic jams,slipping clutches at low speed, work, where does the coffee go while driving? what if the phone rings while sipping hot java and matching revs for the upcoming fast sweeper opening into two lanes...???
then i drove "old" stick again and never realized how much was being missed in an automatic trans. which lead to another thought...the reason my C2S Cab had to go is that it was really not much different to drive than my outlaw Jetta. sure it's a P-car through and through and all. but in retrospect it was RoboCar- there, tirelessly serving my every need; "poor boy...don't hurt your skinny ankle, you might snap a tendon, pushing that silly old spring..let me get that for you Snookums"
why, Thank You!
but the real pay off with 'ole Paint is the shifter. and perhaps this is a guy thing, but with your right hand on the hilt and your left on the wheel, it just feels Right.
while one may speculate that 20 yrs from now, whole Gens of young people won't know WTF to do with that third pedal in that antique of Grandpa's, i suspect that some Luddites will remain. it's just too much fun this way...
As for improvements, given this is the version 1.0 product, Porsche will surely continue to improve and refine year over year. Good riddance to Tiptronic! I look forward to Porsche improving the shift logic to smooth out the downshifts and to coordinate the engine and gearbox so that a downshift doesn't result in a road speed change (faster or slower.) I expect the Turbo with PDK will be a near perfect daily driver capable of putting down lap times that would see it well placed on the grid on any given weekend. : )
10-04-2009, 02:31 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
not quite understand your post mate but common sense would dictate you click right to upshift and click left to downshift ... most manfacturers design their sequential and double clutch gearboxes to operate this way. Why did porsche with their pdk not go this route ... So to me the design to operate the box is counterintuitive
in any case you're mixing "common sense" and "convention"
10-04-2009, 02:34 PM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I have a PDK Cabrio and I find it far from boring. I'm certainly still in the honeymoon phase and I can see how I would miss having the fun of gear shifts, but the PDK car is an all-rounder for me and it does a marvelous job. It's driven more than any two other cars in the garage combined. Anything from stop-n-slow to crawling through traffic or romping through mountain roads top down with two kids in the back seats, squealing with delight, or sitting on the cruise control for 200 miles, with those same two fast asleep in the back seats or (finally) getting to the track and tearing 50% of the tires off in a single day (with nobody in the other seats...)
As for improvements, given this is the version 1.0 product, Porsche will surely continue to improve and refine year over year. Good riddance to Tiptronic! I look forward to Porsche improving the shift logic to smooth out the downshifts and to coordinate the engine and gearbox so that a downshift doesn't result in a road speed change (faster or slower.) I expect the Turbo with PDK will be a near perfect daily driver capable of putting down lap times that would see it well placed on the grid on any given weekend. : )
As for improvements, given this is the version 1.0 product, Porsche will surely continue to improve and refine year over year. Good riddance to Tiptronic! I look forward to Porsche improving the shift logic to smooth out the downshifts and to coordinate the engine and gearbox so that a downshift doesn't result in a road speed change (faster or slower.) I expect the Turbo with PDK will be a near perfect daily driver capable of putting down lap times that would see it well placed on the grid on any given weekend. : )
i have other daily drivers that are more... anonymous than a 911 that i feel better suited the tasks of Urban Vehicular Warfare.
but you're right, it ain't boring. just not what i wanted when i reached for my gun...
10-04-2009, 02:39 PM
#12
yes, the kids in the back seat squealing is great. but my 6 yr olds are getting a little too big for the back seat already. and Lord knows what i'll do when the 2's are old enough!
i have other daily drivers that are more... anonymous than a 911 that i feel better suited the tasks of Urban Vehicular Warfare.
but you're right, it ain't boring. just not what i wanted when i reached for my gun...
i have other daily drivers that are more... anonymous than a 911 that i feel better suited the tasks of Urban Vehicular Warfare.
but you're right, it ain't boring. just not what i wanted when i reached for my gun...
One of the many peculiarities of Silicon Valley is to be able to drive a Porsche and nobody notices.
10-04-2009, 02:40 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
My PDK is not boring IMO. My Audi A-3 has the paddles up right, down left and I have found when throwing a lot of lock in the wheel, I forget which paddle is up/down. Maybe just my memory fading!
10-04-2009, 03:23 PM
#14
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